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Ezekiel 18:21-23

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by Eladar, May 3, 2003.

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  1. Eladar

    Eladar New Member

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    Somebody needs to straighten God out! Doesn't God know that men are dead and have no decision in the matter of salvation?

    Maybe Calvin has already corrected God on this matter and we are just left with an imperfect Bible.
     
    #1 Eladar, May 3, 2003
  2. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Or maybe -- just maybe "God so LOVED THE WORLD" for REAl.

    Maybe - just maybe - "God DRAWS ALL MANKIND UNTO HIMSELF" - just as "ALL MANKIND SINNED" so "ALL MANKIND are DRAWN" - ENABLED to CHOOSE life..

    Maybe - just maybe - God "convicts the WORLD of Sin and righteousness and judgment". Calling all to CHOOSE life.

    Maybe - just maybe - God "STANDS at the door and knocks so that IF ANY ONE hears His voice AND OPENS the door -- He will COME IN and dine WITH that individual person". Rev 3. Man is called to OPEN the door and by so doing - CHOOSE LIFE.

    Maybe God "Sent His SON to be the Savior of the WORLD" 1John 4:14.

    Maybe - just maybe "God is NOT willing for ANY to perish but for ALL to come to repentance" 2Peter 3. - It is God's WILL that ALL should CHOOSE life.

    If we can believe God in Ezek 18 then we can believe Him in the NT as well.

    In Christ,

    Bob

    [ May 03, 2003, 08:09 PM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]
     
    #2 BobRyan, May 3, 2003
  3. Frogman

    Frogman <img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr

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    Somebody needs to straighten God out! Doesn't God know that men are dead and have no decision in the matter of salvation?

    Maybe Calvin has already corrected God on this matter and we are just left with an imperfect Bible.     </font>[/QUOTE]yet you want to claim a salvation free from works? Then go ahead, but fail not to do the whole council of God in your own life, service and witness, for even to fail to teach truth to the people of God would be a transgression of the Law and thus your system falls under its own weight.

    Bro. Dallas
     
    #3 Frogman, May 3, 2003
  4. Eladar

    Eladar New Member

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    I don't want to do anything, except come to an understanding of what God is trying to communicate to us.

    Do we have a choice or not? Evidently at one point God implied that we did by saying that people had the choice.
     
    #4 Eladar, May 3, 2003
  5. russell55

    russell55 New Member

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    Of course we have a choice. Who has said that we don't?
     
    #5 russell55, May 3, 2003
  6. Eladar

    Eladar New Member

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    Those who believe in predestination.
     
    #6 Eladar, May 3, 2003
  7. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry <b>Moderator</b>
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    Those who believe in predestination do not deny choice. I am not sure where you got that idea from but it is certainly not accurate. We affirm choice and we affirm free will. Man can do anything he desires to do.
     
    #7 Pastor Larry, May 3, 2003
  8. russell55

    russell55 New Member

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    Well, I'm a full-fledged predestinarian, and I believe mankind has a choice, and I don't personally know any predestinarians who believe men don't have a choice.

    God commands us to obey all His statutes, so we have two real alternatives: obey all His statutes or don't obey all His statutes. That we all, invariably, choose not to obey all His statutes doesn't mean the choice wasn't a real one.

    Of course, the key to fulfilling the command of Ezekiel 18:21-23 is found in Ezekiel 36:26,27, is it not?

    Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.
     
    #8 russell55, May 3, 2003
  9. Frogman

    Frogman <img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr

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    Amen. Russell55

    Bro. Dallas
     
    #9 Frogman, May 3, 2003
  10. Eladar

    Eladar New Member

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    No Russell I'm afraid it doesn't. All your theology teaches is that we don't actually make any decisions. God is the only one who makes decisions. Some God decides to send to hell, others God decides to let into heaven.

    It has nothing to do with being just. I has everything to do with being a dictatorship. No love. It is all blind slavery.
     
    #10 Eladar, May 3, 2003
  11. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry <b>Moderator</b>
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    Three of us "predestanarians" have told you that what you wrote is not what we believe. By what authority do you tell us we don't believe what we believe?? Two of us gave you reasons and one simply agreed. Your posting don't give much evidence that you know what our system teaches. That signals a problem to me.
     
    #11 Pastor Larry, May 3, 2003
  12. Eladar

    Eladar New Member

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    Larry,

    It appears to me that Russell said one thing and then turned around and said something else.
    vs.
     
    #12 Eladar, May 4, 2003
  13. Frogman

    Frogman <img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr

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    This is the quote from the word of God that Russell supplied to aid in understanding Ez. 18
     
    #13 Frogman, May 4, 2003
  14. Eladar

    Eladar New Member

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    So explain to me how this is someone making a decision. How is it not God deciding who will follow His ways vs. who is going to hell?
     
    #14 Eladar, May 4, 2003
  15. Frogman

    Frogman <img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr

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    This is the work of God, and it is marvellous in our eyes.

    Bro. Dallas
     
    #15 Frogman, May 4, 2003
  16. Eladar

    Eladar New Member

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    Would you please explain that again?
     
    #16 Eladar, May 4, 2003
  17. russell55

    russell55 New Member

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    Tuor,

    How do you explain the two passages from Ezekiel?

    First we have the one you quoted from chapter 18, which says that Israel has a choice to obey God's statutes......or not; which says that Israel is responsible to practice righteousness.

    Then we have the passages from chapter 33, which says that even though Israel is responsible to obey, they will just keep on not obeying, profaning God's name until God intervenes on their behalf and changes them from the inside and causes them to keep His statutes and observe His ordinances.

    So we can assume that these passages are not contradictory, can't we? Can't we assume then that free choice and human responsibility, and God's inner intervening work to influence our choices are not contradictory things? That both can be true at the same time?
     
    #17 russell55, May 4, 2003
  18. Eladar

    Eladar New Member

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    It seems to me that we are not so far apart in actual application, if you believe that we make decisions.

    Our major difference lies with how God works. It seems to me that you believe that God does it and it happens over night. There is no work involved. If you are a part of the elect, then once God regenerates you, you are now perfect.

    My belief is that God 'regenerates' you over time. Once someone accepts Jesus into one's life, one's heart isn't that much different than it was before hand. A person doesn't understand what it means to be a Christian. Over time, as God shapes us with His word and our experiences, our heart becomes a new heart. Those old habits get replaced with new habits. Satan has less and less of a hold of our lives.

    Do we ever become totally free from Satan's grip? Of course not, but we do become more and more righteous. If we are growing in God, it will result in more signs of the Spirit and fewer signs of the flesh. These signs are the result of a new heart. The new heart was the result of God's work in our lives over a period of time.
     
    #18 Eladar, May 4, 2003
  19. russell55

    russell55 New Member

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    Well, I think perhaps you have the wrong impression about what I believe, but I will have to wait until later to respond.
     
    #19 russell55, May 4, 2003
  20. Yelsew

    Yelsew Guest

    Excuse me Pastor Larry, but you seem to be overlooking the Calvinist order of things which is "regeneration" before "belief"! That order denies choice!

    So are you then saying that man does not need regeneration before coming to faith because coming to faith in God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit Is regeneration (the non-Calvinist view)?
     
    #20 Yelsew, May 4, 2003
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