Faith “of” vs. Faith “in”

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by AVBunyan, Aug 22, 2004.

  1. AVBunyan

    AVBunyan
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    AVL1984 said:
    “ALL DOCTRINES AND FUNDAMENTALS OF THE FAITH ARE FOUND INTACT IN THE MV'S!”

    They might be but just because they are there in some places does this give them the right to attack them in other places?

    Just because you find a diamond in a septic tank does that make the septic tank a jewelry store?

    Because a book contains some or a lot of the words of God does this make it a Bible?

    So the fundamentals are there – then what if justification is attacked in some passages – is that ok with some of you folks?

    Here is my point:

    Faith “of” vs. Faith “in” – The Difference Between Heaven and Hell?

    God is very particular about what words he uses when it comes to relating truth to the believer today. Even two letters could make the difference between heaven and hell. Observe how important this is when it comes to the sinner being justified before God. What do the scriptures say about this? Look at the following verse regarding justification.

    Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
    This verse declares that man is justified by the faith of Jesus Christ. This says that it is Jesus’ faith that justifies not mans’. We also find that the faith is a free gift according to:
    Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
    So, the faith that we get is Jesus’ faith and it comes as a free gift. It is not just that salvation is a free gift we must remember that the faith that justifies is not even ours.

    Why is this important? Today the doctrine of justification and salvation is confused. You ask people this question, “What saved you?” A typical answer is, “My faith in Jesus Christ and what he did at Calvary.” Sounds good but it is wrong. (Now I know what the person probably means and I would not question his testimony based upon that phrase at that moment – I am more understanding than that!) Your faith had nothing to do with your justification. You were justified by the faith of Jesus Christ not your faith. It was Jesus’ faith that took him to Calvary – It was Jesus’ faith that led him to stay on the cross and give up his life for the sinner. God was pleased with Jesus’ faith so God justified the saint on the basis of the faith of Jesus Christ – not ours.

    Let’s analyze – if a person says it was his faith in Christ that justifies then he would trust himself and his faith for justification.

    Now, let’s bring it on home. Every new translation on the market changes the “of” to “in” wherever the “faith of Jesus Christ” or “faith of” shows up in regards to salvation or the work of Christ. Don’t take my word for it – check it out! You say I am splitting hairs – not so brethren! If you substitute “in” for “of” you have your faith justifying which is doctrinally wrong. Your faith couldn’t save a dead horse but Jesus’ faith could. A subtle change but it does affect sound doctrine regarding a very import doctrine – salvation. One final thought on this - not only are you justified by His faith you also live by His faith (Gal. 2:20)!!!

    Let’s wrap it up. Two reasons I brought this out:
    1. When you realize that it was not your faith but Jesus’ faith this should give you assurance of both your salvation and your security in your salvation. No more do you have to doubt your salvation because you didn’t have enough faith to believe for your faith had nothing to do with your justification. One would think that Jesus’ faith was good enough for the work of justification.

    2. For those who think the newer translations don’t change words that affect doctrine I just showed you one instance where two letter words could make a difference between you going to heaven or going to hell. For if a man trusts his “great” faith to get him to heaven then he missed justification.

    God bless
     
  2. robycop3

    robycop3
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    Actually, in the Greek, there's NO word between 'pistis'(faith) and 'Iesous'(Jesus), which leaves translators' choice open.

    Besides that, JESUS IS GOD. He does NOT have to have faith in ANYTHING; all is KNOWN to Him...all is SEEN by Him. HE KNOWS everything about His Father. He KNOWS everything about everything!
     
  3. natters

    natters
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    All from the KJV:

    Mark 11:22 And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God.

    Act 24:24 And after certain days, when Felix came with his wife Drusilla, which was a Jewess, he sent for Paul, and heard him concerning the faith in Christ.

    Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth [to be] a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

    Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

    Eph 1:15 Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,

    Col 1:4 Since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus, and of the love [which ye have] to all the saints,

    Col 2:5 For though I be absent in the flesh, yet am I with you in the spirit, joying and beholding your order, and the stedfastness of your faith in Christ.
     
  4. AVBunyan

    AVBunyan
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    Thanks Natters - I understand where "faith in" comes into play - what I was trying to show was "justifying faith" not just a practical faith "in God" or the Lord as you showed from the scriptures.

    The faith in does not justify - the faith "of" does - Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ,

    Also, I knew someone would turn to the Greek and that doesn't bother me - great men of God in the 1600's to the 1800's used the Greek and Hebrew - If you want to use the Greek then fine - I'm not versed on the ancient lanuages - having hard enough time with the English!

    God bless
     
  5. natters

    natters
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    "faith of Jesus" - "of" in English does not always mean "belonging to", as in "Jesus' faith". "of" has a huge range of meaning. It can also mean related to, centering on, etc. If I have a "love of vanilla ice cream", that is referring to my love, not the vanilla ice cream's love.

    Many other scriptures (in all versions), often use the phrase "justfied by faith". Are you saying that in all these instances, the faith is not ours, but Christ's?
     
  6. AVBunyan

    AVBunyan
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    Haven't done a big study but since you mentioned I'll check into - The main point was in those verses where justification was the issue.

    There are all "kinds" of faiths in the Bible but only Christ's faith justifies us according to Gal. 2:16 - In fact the righteusness of God is not from our faith but is Christ's:

    Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

    God bless
     
  7. natters

    natters
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    AVBunyan said "Haven't done a big study but since you mentioned I'll check into - The main point was in those verses where justification was the issue. "

    My question was about verses that talk about justification. Justification "by" faith.

    Also, if "faith of Jesus" always means Jesus' faith as opposed to faith centered on Jesus, how are saints supposed to keep it?

    Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
     
  8. robycop3

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    My point is that Jesus *KNEW* all that was gonna occur. Having always been with His Father, having been given all authority by his Father, He didn't have FAITH, He had/has EMPIRICAL KNOWLEDGE since He's seen everything and knows everything.

    I <<<RESPECTFULLY>>> ask...What was/is there for JESUS to have faith IN? He, His father, & the Holy Spirit are the SUPREME BEINGS! None nor nothing is as high or higher! JESUS made all there is, according to Yahweh's "blueprint". FAITH is believing in the UNSEEN. WHAT is unseen by JESUS?
     
  9. natters

    natters
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    Ah, interesting point robycop3. I didn't quite understand the first time.
     
  10. AVBunyan

    AVBunyan
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    Rom 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
    Not our faith -

    Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
    We live by His faith -

    Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
    The promise by His faith -

    Just not sure what verses you may be referring to - if it is associated with justification it is Christ's faith - not ours - our faith cannot justify.

    We don't have to to keep the faith of Christ for that was settle - in the tribulation (Reve. 14) they obviously have to keep a faith but that pasage is for them and not us.

    Justifying Christ originates from Christ not us.

    I don't think I'm doig too well here explaining this to you - sorry

    God bless
     
  11. natters

    natters
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    AVBunyan said "Just not sure what verses you may be referring to"

    Rom 3:27-30, James 2:24, others.

    AVBunyan said "they obviously have to keep a faith"

    But my question is, how can they keep a faith that is someone else's? They could not keep Jesus' faith, just as I could not keep your faith.
     
  12. robycop3

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    Let's see if we can work this out...First, I don't think JESUS HIMSELF had/has faith...He has SURE KNOWLEDGE AND FACTS.

    Now, what would faith OF Jesus be? Would it be the faith He gives us? Would it be the complete set of beliefs we have in Him? Would it be our complete set of beliefs pertaining to God in general?

    In Luke 17, the apostles asked Jesus to increase their faith. Jesus replied by showing them how small their faith was...and I believe He meant for them to increase their faith THEMSELVES.

    Later, He opened their minds for them to fully realize who He was. Now, one might say they didn't believe believe in Him by faith, but, after He was returned to heaven, the apostles CALLED ON HIS NAME to have miracles occur. They knew it was JESUS' power, and not their own, that performed those miracles. the apostles had FAITH that Jesus would do those miracles if they asked in His name. That's what Jesus had told them He would do, & they had FAITH He would do it.

    I believe faith is a human thing, while GOD should be the OBJECT of our faith. God is ULTIMATE-THE MOST HIGH. There's nothing for Him to have faith IN...He's seen all, made all, controls all.

    Stretching things a bit, we MIGHT say Jesus, while a man, had faith His Father would do all He'd said. But as Scripture shows, Jesus retained His KNOWLEDGE, although He'd temporarily laid most of His POWER AND GLORY aside.
     
  13. michelle

    michelle
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    Hiya AvBunyan!

    Thank you for all your posts! They are like a breath of fresh air in here. I think it is wonderful that you are sharing the truth with others, and it is becoming apparent, many either do not understand the gospel, or they are arguing against the truth in order to feel justified at the end of the day for their compromise with error. I have come to understand, that as much as one tries to help others understand the truth, it can only come by God through the Holy Spirit. It also seems apparent, that many here don't really care to understand the truth, but only argue against it. There is a very strong argumenative spirit on these boards, that wrest the truth in the scriptures to their own destruction, and at the expense of the truth and faith of others. You are absolutely correct. Our faith comes not by our own selves, but by and of Jesus Christ. Otherwise I would not have understood the gospel. I would not be able to say confidently that I am saved. Faith has been given to me by God, and it is the faith of Jesus Christ. He was the second Adam, in that he lived perfectly in God's will and law (and only He could, because only God is perfect) to be a lamb without blemish, in order for his perfect, and unblemished blood could remiss our sins. He inparted to us, not only our understanding of this great truth (to which is what faith is) but also that it was His full obediance to the law in the flesh for us. This is the faith of Jesus to which he has imparted to every born again believer. I know this, because I can testify to it, with my own testimony. I did not turn to God on my "own", but it was the Lord who called me to him, and gave me faith, his faith, that I may have faith in him.

    Matt. 16

    13. When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?
    14. And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.
    15. He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
    16. And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
    17. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
    18. And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.


    The faith of God (revealed by God the faith of Jesus Christ - his perfect fulfilment of the law) is what Jesus states will build his church.
    (Isaiah 49:7, Luke 16, 1 Cor. 1:9, 1 Cor. 10:13, 2 Thess.3:3, Heb.10, 1 John 1, Rev. 3:14, Rev. 19:11, Rev.22:6)


    This is what I have been given in my understanding of the gospel and my faith. It did not come from my own faith, but the faith of the Son of God, Jesus Christ.


    Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
    michelle
     

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