'Faith Alone' and James 2:24.

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Martin Marprelate, Mar 15, 2016.

  1. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate
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    The doctrine of 'Salvation by Faith Alone' is one of the great pillars of the Protestant faith.
    Yet James 2:24 says, 'You see then that a man is justified by works and not by faith only.'

    Would anyone like to have a stab at explaining why James 2:24, properly understood, does not undermine Sola Fide, and how it is reconciled with verses like Romans 4:4 and Ephesians 2:8-9? Cool
     
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  2. annsni

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    When you read James in context, he is not saying that works save us but that true faith will be proven by works. James says that someone says that he has faith so prove it - and that he can prove his faith because of his works.
     
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  3. Internet Theologian

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    Person's must also understand the historical context behind Sola Fide and as to why it was presented as Scriptural doctrine. Some erect straw man figures as to what Sola Fide entails then deconstruct them as if they've dismantled this biblical truth.

    As to the OP there is no genuine faith where there is no works. Note Philippians 2:13.
     
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  4. Doubting Thomas

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    I more or less agree with the answers from Ann and IT on this. Cool
     
  5. Doubting Thomas

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    I more or less agree with the answers from Ann and IT on this. Cool
     
  6. utilyan

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    'You see then that a man is justified by works and not by faith only.'
    'You see then that a man is justified by faith only and not by works.'

    Seriously? properly understood its BACKWARDS!?

    There is a reason Martin Luther wanted this book removed when he made up Faith Alone.


    1 Corinthians 13
    2If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.


    That's the crux of the matter. If you say you have "faith alone" and its understood Love is in there, I'll give it a pass.

    If that GOOD WORK of loving God and Loving Neighbor is not in there, no way, faith alone fails.


    Galatians 5
    6For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love.


    How about faith working through hatred, along side sin, faith working with evil? No this does not work.


    Another loophole for faith alone, assuming its faith in Christ/God, is the precision and accuracy of faith.

    For example of someone came up to me who hates God the direction of his faith goes to his IDEA of God not actually God.

    Whereas if anyone achieves actual faith in God it is required and done by one who LOVES God.

    The common denominator is you have to Love GOD, and loving God also entails loving your neighbor.


    The merit and credit is all gift from God. The Justification is motive of God's grace.

    By grace alone, in faith in Christ's saving work and not because of any merit on our part, we are accepted by God and receive the Holy Spirit, who renews our hearts while equipping and calling us to good works.
     
  7. Martin Marprelate

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    If you believe that the Lord Jesus shed His blood for you on the cross, how can you do otherwise than love Him? Faith comes first. Love naturally follows on from faith.

    As I have stated in the O.P., the need for either side of the debate is to harmonize James 2:24 with verses like Joel 2:32; Romans 4:4-5 and Ephesians 2:8-10. If you can't do that, please leave the thread for those who can. Thank you.
     
    #7 Martin Marprelate, Mar 15, 2016
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2016
  8. kyredneck

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    Seems pretty cut & dried to me. You Reformed types stubbornly cling to an archaic man made non-Biblical 'mantra' that is clearly refuted as being false here. It's very clear, you all say it's by faith alone, the passage succinctly states the opposite.

    Forget Ja 2:24. It's not needed to refute this non-Biblical notion of 'faith alone':

    5 but after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up for thyself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
    6 who will render to every man according to his works:
    7 to them that by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and incorruption, eternal life:
    8 but unto them that are factious, and obey not the truth, but obey unrighteousness, shall be wrath and indignation,
    9 tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that worketh evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Greek;
    10 but glory and honor and peace to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Greek: Ro 2
     
    #8 kyredneck, Mar 15, 2016
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2016
  9. kyredneck

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    There is neither without the regenerate heart. The heavenly birth, the heart with the law written upon it, is first and foremost.

    I totally agree with 'by grace alone', or 'by Christ alone'. 'Faith alone' is false. And besides, there ain't none of you really really really believe it anyway.
     
  10. utilyan

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    Again it depends on how you define FAITH.

    Satan has complete and perfect faith in GOD. If Jesus tells Satan in 5 minutes a rock will fall where you are standing, he will move out the way, He is confident of Jesus, Trusts Jesus, has Faith in Jesus, STILL HATES Jesus.

    The entire point of James 2 is this. The whole chapter is geared specifically against your type of thinking.

    James 2
    19You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder.

    We are telling you the same thing, because FAITH ALONE has no bearing on LOYALTY or Allegiance.

    If you want to redefine the word FAITH that inclusively contains loyalty, love, allegiance........DO THAT THEN. And we will give it a pass.

    Faith without love is EVIL.

    If it does not have love, it does not have God and it is evil, it is SIN.



    1 Corinthians 13
    13But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love.

    We can say AMEN hallelujah hallelujah hallelujah! To the above the word of GOD.
    How is it I can step in and say.....hold on a second...... :::scribble scribble:::

    13But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is FAITH.


    No sir. God is LOVE. LOVE is GOD. No where does it say God is FAITH.

    1 john 4 God is love, and the one who abides in love abides in God

    But someone who thinks Love is weak, that kindness has no strength can't reconcile this they only respect FEAR, POWER and VIOLENCE.

    You cannot idolatrously shove FAITH ahead of Love. Love is Alpha and Omega. It sparks faith and hope. Without GOD(love) you have NOTHING.


    The entire chapter of 1 Corinthians 13 I can replace the word LOVE with Jesus or God. And the whole thing fits.

    You might have your own idea of God, if it is outside of Love it is trash.

    1 Corinthians 13
    8Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away.

    Faith and Hope will disappear. You can't hope for a sandwich when your eating it. Faith is training wheels they will be gone by vision, when you perfectly see God.
     
  11. Martin Marprelate

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    Eph. 2:8-9. 'For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast..'

    Rom. 4:4-5. 'Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness.'

    Understanding Scripture is not like playing Top Trumps: "My James 2 beats your Ephesians 2 and your Romans 4:4-5." Unless you can reconcile the Scriptures, for they will not contradict one another, you are just wasting everybody's time.

    I have two sermons to prepare for the coming Lord's day, but when I'm up to speed with them I will give my understanding of these texts and try to reconcile them.
     
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  12. Martin Marprelate

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    Ah! Now you're on to something. I think it is Calvin who said that we are saved by works- just not our own! We are saved by the work of the Lord Jesus Christ, by His active and passive obedience to the Father. 'In Christ alone my hope is found.'

    I don't think that's Roman Catholic theology though. :D
     
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  13. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate
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    Something's gone wrong! One of my posts and one of Utilyan's have suddenly disappeared.Devilish
     
  14. Rippon

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    You are aware that you can delete a post -- aren't you?
     
  15. kyredneck

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    They're not our own works in the sense that they do not spring from the 'natural man, but from the heart that's had the law supernaturally written upon it. BUT, we are indeed doing the works:

    13 for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified:
    14 (for when Gentiles that have not the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are the law unto themselves;
    15 in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness therewith, and their thoughts one with another accusing or else excusing them); Ro 2

    12 So then, my beloved, even as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;
    13 for it is God who worketh in you both to will and to work, for his good pleasure. Phil 2

    He admits to being a 'bad Catholic' in his profile, and I appreciate the quote he carries there, and he's spot dead on concerning AGAPE:

    8 Owe no man anything, save to love one another: for he that loveth his neighbor hath fulfilled the law.
    9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not covet, and if there be any other commandment, it is summed up in this word, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.
    10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbor: love therefore is the fulfilment of the law. Ro 13

    Agape, 'thinking of others' (you know, the 'charity' of the KJV), is the very essence of the religion of Jesus Christ, and it DOES NOT spring from the natural man but from the supernaturally circumcised heart (made not with hands).
     
  16. kyredneck

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    FTR, you and I differ greatly on the scriptural meaning of 'saved', but to lessen confusion and get on with the dialog I usually use it 'your way', which is always in the eternal sense. so I ask again:

    Show me even one eternal judgment passage that is not about our works.
     
  17. ReformedBaptist

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    Some of my posts are appearing and disappearing too.
     
  18. walkinspirit

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    First of all let's be faithful to the Bible and to the teachings of the Apostles. Luther added in his German translation ALONE, and its not in the Bible. Paul said we are justified by faith and he meant that works of the law by which the Jews were trying to justify themselves will never save them but he always exhorted believers to be zealous for good works which are the outcome of genuine faith on Jesus.

    To sum it up according to Paul and the author of the Hebrews without love or holiness we are either nothing or we will not see God. True faith should work by love and the fruit of genuine faith is the holiness without which no one will see the Lord. If you don't agree with that, your faith is not the saving faith.

    Faith without love or holiness is empty and false, its called antinomianism and will never save anyone only give him a false hope and at the end he will not make it to heaven.

    Jesus made it evident that we should abide in him and he in us. This is the only way for us to bear fruit and the basis of our justification and sanctification is union with Christ, without him we can do nothing, even our best works will be as filthy rags in the sight of God.

    A true faith will motivate and lead us to good works and even those good works have already been prepared for us before the foundation of the world by the Father. Good works are not works of the law, that distinction is important. Good works are impossible unless we are in Christ, he is the source of all good we do but works of the law we can do them as legalists or like Pharisees and these works of the law are a substitute to Christ and his work on the Cross and this is very displeasing to God, its the root of phareesaism and what God hates the most.

    Our fruit comes as a result of our spiritual union with Christ. It is Christ that by the Holy Spirit enables us to love and do those works. I need this intimate relationship with Him first, then I will be able to love other people as myself.

    I can dedicate all my life to serve and feed the poor and outcast of society and at the end go to hell if I don't have love. Faith works by love and without these two, no matter how great and unselfish are my works it will do me no good but send me straight to hell.

    James reminded those Christians who overemphasized faith to the neglect of genuine good works that their faith is dead like the body is dead without the spirit and in essence what is he saying is this : that you believe God but you don't show love to your neighbor, if that's the case your faith is not a saving faith and you are deceiving yourself.
     
    #18 walkinspirit, Mar 19, 2016
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2016
  19. utilyan

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    That statement could actually fly. We Catholics split hairs to the exacting accuracy of the words.

    Had you said "just without our own" rather then "just not our own!" Then we slam the brakes.

    A person's head could spin figuring out the difference.


    Also have to well define Justified versus Regenerated versus Saved. When we come to scripture where two views presented we are more likely to consider BOTH & AND rather then EITHER OR.


    I can say we are saved by "GOD ALONE" we all agree. Full credit and the actual job of doing it.
    Hows and whys are different.


    When someone mentions Justified or elect this is only obtainable by God's grace, its his motive.

    This cannot be earned by us, but in THE WORD, Jesus Christ God has chosen everyone in the world.

    When someone mentions being saved, regeneration, and repentance. I see our cooperation with Christ, Our following his instructions is saving us, changing us.

    Without our cooperation he's just fixing robots rather then saving souls.


    I believe God allows for all men to go to heaven, has given all a ticket there, through Jesus Christ.

    But not all men want to punch that ticket. When one goes to hell they put themselves there.
     
  20. SovereignGrace

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    This updated system is a regression. Some times I can get on this site, some times I can't. One of my posts 'poofed' only to come back later. They need a refund and going back to old format, imo.
     

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