Faith and Doctrine

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Mark Osgatharp, Dec 18, 2005.

  1. Mark Osgatharp

    Mark Osgatharp
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    1,719
    Likes Received:
    0
    Can authentic Biblical faith be separted from correct doctrine? I say, no and present the following passages from Romans as evidence.

    "For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith."

    "But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you."

    "Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, but now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: to God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen"

    Mark Osgatharp
     
  2. Deacon

    Deacon
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2002
    Messages:
    6,926
    Likes Received:
    111
    Can anyone have perfect doctrine?
    Is doctrine the key to perfect faith?
    Will a wholly correct doctrinal understanding save me?

    Sure doctrine is important but faith is honored, hope is desired, love is all important.
    Rob
     
  3. Mark Osgatharp

    Mark Osgatharp
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    1,719
    Likes Received:
    0
    Deacon,

    Faith is believing; believing is believing the truth, not an error. Therefore authentic faith cannot be separated from correct doctrine.

    Faith is not an either/or proposition but also a little/much proposition. Therefore, the more accurate our doctrine more capacity we have for faith. You ask,

    "Is doctrine the key to perfect faith?"

    I don't know how anyone could think otherwise in light of the Scriptures I mentioned above, along with many others. Believing an error is not faith.

    Mark Osgatharp
     
  4. Gold Dragon

    Gold Dragon
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2005
    Messages:
    3,837
    Likes Received:
    3
    So aside from Mark O, I guess nobody else has an authentic biblical faith since I doubt there is anyone correct in their doctrine besides Mark O.
     
  5. Deacon

    Deacon
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2002
    Messages:
    6,926
    Likes Received:
    111
    Mark, I understand, I really do.
    I earnestly enjoy studying the doctrines of God.
    However even in study, we often miss the point.
    You can be an excellent academic scholar or a top-class exegete and fully expound the Scriptures correctly and still not please God.
    Our Father looks on our heart.
    Even the most simple among us can have a greater faith than ours.

    Yesterday at church, I was ministered to by a woman who has cared for an autistic young man faithfully for years.
    Her faith is strongly shown by the loving care, fortitude and her unfailing devotion.
    She didn’t need to say anything; her deep love and faith is evident through her actions.
    I don’t know about what her views on salvation are.
    I don’t know if she is a Calvinist or not.
    I don’t even know her views on the inerrancy of Scripture.
    She doesn't have a lot of time to devote to Bible study.
    But her faith is strong and powerful.

    God loves the simplest among us and uses them to confound the mighty.

    Rob
     
  6. Mark Osgatharp

    Mark Osgatharp
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    1,719
    Likes Received:
    0
    Gold Dragon and Deacon,

    Please stop the sentimentalism and personal attacks and deal with the what the above passages of Scripture state.

    Mark Osgatharp
     
  7. Gold Dragon

    Gold Dragon
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2005
    Messages:
    3,837
    Likes Received:
    3
    Correct doctrine or teaching is not mentioned in this passage.

    Authentic faith is not mentioned in this passage.

    The above two passages do not associate authentic faith with correct doctrine.

    This passage is the concluding paragraph of Romans as Paul's well wishing to the Roman church. He prays for God to strengthen the Roman Christians to obey in faith.

    I'm all for authentic biblical faith. I'm all for right biblical doctrines. But these passages are not saying that authentic biblical faith is not possible without complete understanding of right biblical doctrine.
     
  8. HankD

    HankD
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 14, 2001
    Messages:
    14,406
    Likes Received:
    238
    There is a definite relationship

    2 Timothy 3
    13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
    14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
    15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
    16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
    17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.


    I like to reckon spiritual food to physical food.

    One need not know all the science of digestion and assimilation to eat and enjoy a meal but it is helpful for health's sake to know the rules of a balanced diet.

    HankD
     
  9. Deacon

    Deacon
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2002
    Messages:
    6,926
    Likes Received:
    111
    Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. Hebrews 11:1 NAS

    Mark, you are going to have to make a better case for your point.

    I would agree that doctrine (what we believe) defines our actions (what we do).

    Paul writes in 1 Timothy 1:4-6,
    “…nor to pay attention to myths and endless genealogies, which give rise to mere speculation rather than furthering the administration of God which is by faith. But the goal of our instruction is love from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith. For some men, straying from these things, have turned aside to fruitless discussion, [bolding added]

    He defines our goal: as teachers we need to teach application.
    Correct doctrine for knowledge sake is empty, and as sentimental as it may sound, it’s a clanging symbol.

    Rob
     
  10. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    May 4, 2001
    Messages:
    21,763
    Likes Received:
    0
    There is a core of doctrine that must be believed to be saved: God as holy, man as sinner, Christ as perfect sacrifice, etc.

    But salvation does not require completely right doctrine in all areas. One can be saved and believe something that is incorrect.

    The verses in the OP have nothing really to do with this topic however. They deal with the doctrines necessary for salvation.

    Scripture makes it clear that learning and teaching is necessary to grow in grace and in the knowledge of our Lord and Savior JEsus Christ.
     
  11. Mark Osgatharp

    Mark Osgatharp
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    1,719
    Likes Received:
    0
    Correct doctrine or teaching is not mentioned in this passage.</font>[/QUOTE]Of course it is. The passage explicitly says that the faith is revealed in the gospel, which is the message of Christ. Furthermore, it not only involves initial faith but continuing faith - "from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith."

    Authentic faith is not mentioned in this passage.</font>[/QUOTE]Of course it is. The whole passage is an exposition of what it means to live by faith. As a matter of fact, I would take the verse quoted above as a succinct definition of an obedient Christian faith, namely, when we obey, from the heart, the correct form of doctrine we have been taught.


    This passage is the concluding paragraph of Romans as Paul's well wishing to the Roman church. He prays for God to strengthen the Roman Christians to obey in faith.</font>[/QUOTE]The passage states that through the preaching of Christ as revealed in the Scriptures men are brought to the obedience of faith. What other kind of authentic faith is there?

    I am not contending that our understanding must be "complete" in order to have faith. I am contending that:

    A. We must have at least a minimum understanding to have at least a minimum amount of faith.

    B. The capacity for greater faith, and therefore of greater love - since faith works by love, increases only with an increase in understanding of correct doctrine, as the passage above with all other Scriptures teach so plainly teach.

    Frankly, I am astounded that anyone professing to be a Baptist could think otherwise.

    Mark Osgatharp
     
  12. Mark Osgatharp

    Mark Osgatharp
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    1,719
    Likes Received:
    0
    Pastor Larry,

    I do not contend that we must be completely correct in all our doctrine to have authentic faith. I am contending that our faith is only as good as the doctrine on which it rests.

    As you pointed out, there is a miniumum of understanding a man must have to be born again.

    But the Bible also speaks of little faith and much faith, and exhorts us to increase in our faith. My point is that the only way our faith can increase is by an increased understanding of the truth.

    Conversely, any "faith" that rests on untruths, is not really faith at all. For example, we have all, at sometime or another, heard some sick person say "I know God is going to heal me" and some people take that as a great expression of faith.

    But the Bible says we don't know what tomorrow holds and so all such boasts are just hopeful thinking and not authentic faith.

    Mark Osgatharp
     
  13. Deacon

    Deacon
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2002
    Messages:
    6,926
    Likes Received:
    111
    The only way our faith can increase is by an increased understanding of God.
    Our study of doctrine is ONE way we can increase that understanding.

    We are coming to an agreement here. [​IMG]

    Rob
     
  14. prophecynut

    prophecynut
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2004
    Messages:
    1,263
    Likes Received:
    0
    The degree of truth is a variable amongst believers, the amount depends on the person's knowledge and experience.

    Instead of requiring everyone to have the "correct doctrine," a better term would be "sound doctrine" of core beliefs confirming our faith in Christ.

    The understanding of God increases our faith.

    Being more like Christ increases our love.
     
  15. Mark Osgatharp

    Mark Osgatharp
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    1,719
    Likes Received:
    0
    What is "sound doctrine" other than "correct doctrine"? Can incorrect doctrine be "sound"?

    Mark Osgatharp
     
  16. prophecynut

    prophecynut
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2004
    Messages:
    1,263
    Likes Received:
    0
    Looked up "sound" in the dictionary - theologically correct or orthodox, as doctrines or a theologian.

    Maybe somebody will come along with the authority to clarify doctrine before it all ends.
     

Share This Page

Loading...