Faith and knowledge

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by steaver, Dec 23, 2008.

  1. steaver

    steaver
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2004
    Messages:
    9,005
    Likes Received:
    82
    Some say the two are dirrect opposites.

    That one cannot have faith in and personal knowledge of the same absolute truth at the same time.

    That one cannot have faith in Jesus Christ and at the same time know with an personal, absolute knowledge Jesus is Lord.

    Personally I know Jesus is Lord. I also have faith in Jesus Christ.

    Why do some see a conflict?

    Question for all who respond to answer first before they reply....

    Do you personally know, with an absolute knowledge, Jesus Christ is Lord? If "yes", where does thy faith come in?

    If "no", what does this verse mean....
    Rom 8:16The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

    God Bless! :wavey:
     
  2. DHK

    DHK
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    37,982
    Likes Received:
    134
    Yes I know that Christ is Lord.
    Faith is based on knowledge; it is not blind. Many religions have "blind" faith; not Christianity. Our faith is based on the resurrection of Jesus Christ, one of the most historically attested facts in all of history.

    Paul said:
    1 Corinthians 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
    --My faith is based on the resurrection; if not my faith is emptiness (my faith here referring to my beliefs).

    1 Corinthians 15:19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
    --What a miserable existence it is to have faith in a Christ that never rose from the dead. Why go on? This would be blind faith if we could not know for sure. Faith is based on facts. I know for sure I am going to heaven. I know for sure I am saved. I know for sure that Christ rose from the dead. Faith is based on facts.

    Faith, rightly defined, is confidence in the word of another.
    We exercise faith every day. We put our faith in others and in things.
    I put my faith in my wife that she will take good care of my (our) children while I am out of the house. I am confident that she will. Over the years as I got to know her, my confidence in her grew, that is my faith grew.
    The same is true with the Lord. The more we spend time with him, the more our faith in him grows. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God.
    My wife will make mistakes. She is human.

    But I can put my faith into God's perfect Word. And a perfect God will never fail. His promises are sure. He will never fail to keep his word. I can have complete and full trust in Him; in His Word.
    Faith is based on the facts of God's Word.
     
  3. LeBuick

    LeBuick
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2006
    Messages:
    11,537
    Likes Received:
    0
    Because you've never beheld Christ himself you know from the substance of your hope which was the evidence of that which you have not seen.

    You know him by faith...

    Heb 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
     
  4. DHK

    DHK
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    37,982
    Likes Received:
    134
    A Muslim suicide bomber "knows" he is going to paradise because, by faith, he believes the Koran that all who die in the name of Allah, as a martyr, are guaranteed a place in paradise.

    I "know" by faith, that I am going to heaven when I die because I put my faith in Christ, according to the promises of His Word.

    What is the difference between my faith and his faith; between my "know" (assurance), and his "know" (assurance)?
     
  5. LeBuick

    LeBuick
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2006
    Messages:
    11,537
    Likes Received:
    0
    I don't think there is a difference in the faith. The difference is in the substance, he'll be extremely hot thinking paradise is not all it was cracked up to be while you'll be mad at John for trying to use words to describe something so glorious that words could do it no justice.


    I do get your point, it's like having faith that a wall can cure your cancer. It's like the opposite of faith with no works, it's faith that can't work. Instead of the faith being dead, it's like having faith in the dead.

    I don't know the answer but I think it's an interesting question... I'll have to sleep on this one.
     
  6. Amy.G

    Amy.G
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2006
    Messages:
    13,103
    Likes Received:
    0
    The difference in your faith and his faith is the object of your faith. He may believe just as strongly as you do, but his faith is in vain. He has believed in vain. It is worthless.
     
  7. DHK

    DHK
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    37,982
    Likes Received:
    134
    The Muslim's faith is blind.
    He puts his faith in the words of the Koran. That is the basis of his faith--the Koran. But who wrote the Koran, and how reliable is it? Am I willing to die for those things that are written in the Koran? Are they historically substantiated to be true and reliable, and its truths divinely ordained of God. In other words: How can one know for sure that they will go to heaven just because the Koran says so? There is no way to verify that. It is blind faith. The Muslim has no basis for his belief. He has to take the Koran and Muhammed's word by blind faith. He believes it because he says it and for no other reason. It is blind faith. It has no reason for being true.

    I put my faith in Christ because his promise--that He is God, and God alone can grant eternal life--is based on the resurrection of Jesus Christ. My faith is not blind. It is anchored in the gospel of Jesus Christ, who demonstrated his deity while on this earth. He paid the penalty for my sins. Christianity is the only way that sins can be forgiven and that one can go to heaven. We have a solid evidence whereby we can anchor our faith. It is not blind faith.
     
  8. DHK

    DHK
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    37,982
    Likes Received:
    134
    Quite true.
     
  9. LeBuick

    LeBuick
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2006
    Messages:
    11,537
    Likes Received:
    0
    I believe you but if you were to ask the Muslim he would say just the opposite. He would call his faith true and yours vain?

    Now I like what Amy said about the object. Though the object won't lesson the intensity of the faith, it does impact the end result.

    I had a seminary professor that made us prove God was real without using the Bible. When you think about it, both you and the Muslim credits your God for having the sun rise in the morning and the moon to shine at night. So how then can you prove the object of your faith to be more concrete than the object of the Muslim's faith? How can you prove your God is real?
     
  10. DHK

    DHK
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    37,982
    Likes Received:
    134
    Yes indeed. The resurrection proves all. Has any other religious leader risen from the dead. To deny the resurrection one must deny the witness of over 500 witnesses. There is a great witness and verifiable evidence to the resurrection that cannot be denied.
    Did Christ live?
    Did he say what he said, and were his claims true?
    Did he verify his claims through miracles, signs and wonders?
    Die he demonstrate his deity, who he was, through his resurrection?

    Only God can forgive sins. Only God rose from the dead. It is not a myth, fable, story; but verified in history.

    If Jesus is not who he claims to be (deity), then he is the biggest liar, fake deceiver that ever walked the face of this earth. In light of the above evidence you (the Muslim) decide who he is.
     
  11. steaver

    steaver
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2004
    Messages:
    9,005
    Likes Received:
    82
    But many would say that the bible we embrace as the word of God has been molested and that Jesus did not really rise from the dead. You might point to overwelming evidence from history that Jesus is Lord, that the bible is reliable and in a court of law Jesus would have been found to have indeed risen from the dead. But those in opposition would simply say "lies and more lies". They might say you are being deceived.

    Is there not something you failed to mention about the Christian faith?

    You said you know Jesus is Lord. How? Because you believe the bible and the evidence from history? Or do you believe the bible because you have personally encountered Jesus Christ?

    :jesus:
     
  12. steaver

    steaver
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2004
    Messages:
    9,005
    Likes Received:
    82
    I have a personal knowledge that I have a heart. I can feel it beating within my chest. I have never seen my heart but I personally know it is there. Can it be said that I know that there is a heart in my chest by faith?

    :jesus:
     
  13. steaver

    steaver
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2004
    Messages:
    9,005
    Likes Received:
    82
    In a nut shell, you have said the Muslim's faith is in the Koran and the Christians faith is in the Bible. The Muslim believes the Koran and you believe the bible. Where is the difference?

    The Muslim cares not about historical evidence because he is taught that the historical record has been molested by the Jews and Christians. So what is it that sets the Christian apart from having a blind faith in what they have been taught or what they have read concerning history?

    What is it that can cause the Muslim to convert to Christ apart from analyzing evidence?

    :godisgood:
     
  14. steaver

    steaver
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2004
    Messages:
    9,005
    Likes Received:
    82
    Rom 1:20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:


    Creation proves it. Men have the option to reject what is clearly seen.

    :thumbsup:
     
  15. Tom Butler

    Tom Butler
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2005
    Messages:
    9,031
    Likes Received:
    0
    From the Western Recorder, December 9, 1920 W. E. Fendley, a lawyer, approached the resurrection from a lawyer's viewpoint.

    There were five penalties of death associated with the stealing of a body, and not one of these penalties was carried out. The penalties were given as
    1. Allowing the seal on the tomb to be broken
    2. Breaking the seal
    3. Stealing the body
    4. Allowing the body to be stolen
    5. Going to sleep on duty

    He pointed out the scripture in which the soldiers said an angel had driven them away from the tomb and how the Pharisees had bribed them to say someone had stolen the body while they slept.

    Then Mr. Fendley went on to give five things one must believe in order to accept the report of the soldiers:

    1. They must believe that 64 Roman soldiers, under penalty of death, all slept at once.
    2. They must accept the testimony of people who were asleep.
    3. The must believe that the disciples, who were all so afraid, all at once became tremendously bold.
    4. They must believe that the thieves took plenty of time to fold up the grave clothes and place them neatly to one side.
    5. They must believe that those disciples would risk their lives for a dead imposter, when they would not for a living Savior [before the resurrection].

    There are some things that we must accept by faith because we have reached the limits of our knowledge and understanding.
    There are some things that we can accept because of the evidence we have.
    There are some things we can accept because we can reason them out.

    I saw a sign posted at the website Crummy Church Signs which said, "Reason the greatest enemy that faith has." http://crummychurchsigns.blogspot.com/

    The comment under the picture "Sometimes it's the other way around...but it doesn't have to be."
     
  16. steaver

    steaver
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2004
    Messages:
    9,005
    Likes Received:
    82
    What is your answer Tom?

    Do you have a personal absolute knowledge Jesus is Lord? Or do we just hope He is?

    :jesus:
     
  17. LeBuick

    LeBuick
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2006
    Messages:
    11,537
    Likes Received:
    0
    Yes Sir!!! I would call that the evidence of things not seen... :thumbs:

    1Co 2:5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
     
  18. ray Marshall

    ray Marshall
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2007
    Messages:
    570
    Likes Received:
    0
    FAITH is one of the fruit of the spirit. You must be born again in order to have the saving faith of GOD. In the nt, it is mentioned, Give me more faith. So in conclusion to ask for more faith you must have a measure of faith with the new birth or if you ask for faith,then you must already have "Some" faith. You can't ask for something more if you don't already possess it.
     
  19. Tom Butler

    Tom Butler
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2005
    Messages:
    9,031
    Likes Received:
    0
    I have never seen Jesus in the flesh, but we have the writings of those who did.

    We have the witness of Lazarus' resurrection at Jesus' command in John 11:44-45

    We have the recorded statement of Thomas, who would not believe Jesus was alive until he saw him, but when did see him, he called him "My Lord and my God."

    And we have Paul's testimony of his meeting with the risen Christ on the road to Damascus, at which point he called in "Lord.".

    So we have some solid evidence from witnesses.

    And we have Mr. Fendley's reasoning, which asks why his disciples (including me) would be willing to die for Jesus' sake if he were still dead and they knew he was dead. If I recall, when they realized Jesus was dead from crucifixion, they all went left and went home. I would have, too. Only a risen Savior explains their turnaround. Only a resurrection explains the willingness of men and women to die for the sake of the gospel.

    Then there is witness of the Holy Spirit in our hearts, and the element of faith,without which is it impossible to please God.

    If Jesus did not rise from the dead, then let's shut down this board and board up all our church building and disband our congregations.

    steaver, I think I'm saying essentially what you said in a different way.
     
    #19 Tom Butler, Dec 25, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 25, 2008
  20. steaver

    steaver
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2004
    Messages:
    9,005
    Likes Received:
    82
    At age ten, before I ever read one book of the Holy bible, I received Jesus Christ as my Lord and Saviour (regeneration) after hearing Billy Graham preach the simple gospel message.

    Wouldn't this be the only reason we are saved and have faith in Christ?

    :jesus:
     

Share This Page

Loading...