Faith and OSAS. Issues in Conflict

It would take more eisegesis than the world can hold to bend Romans 11 to the point that the Jewish branches that were taken out "because of unbelief" - REMAINED in a saved stated!!

It would take more eisegesis than all the typing in the world could muster to bend the text to the point that the text saying "YOU should fear for if HE did not spare them NEITHER will he spare you.. you stand only by your faith" -- to mean "Faith or not - IN Christ or not - you are still saved so ignore the text."

I am surprised that anyone would buy that line of reasoning instead of going to scripture on this one.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Clearly this is individuals rejected (as Paul was certainly NOT rejected though a Jew). And it is INDIVIDUAL Gentiles accepted (as ALL pagans were NOT considered Saints by Paul in any sense at all). There are all being grafted “into” the vine of Christ – and as such form “ the church”. They come in based on faith and they remain based on faith.

Just stating the “obvious” here but some have been avoiding this points in desperate attempts to spare the OSAS assumptions that are exposed by Romans 11 while others reject the idea of the ONE Gospel active in the church of God in all ages – grafting all the saints into the SAME vine of Christ.

Rom 11:17-23 - WE are grafted in to the place from which some of those who rebelled fell (as we note in Romans 11). WE are in the same place as THEY - under the ONE Gospel. (Gal 1:6)

Romans 11 points out that we are grafted into the SAME place from which the Jews fell AND that God wants to put the Jews BACK into the place from which they fell.
Not only is this a denial of OSAS it is also a denial that once you fall you can not be re-instated.

As you read the details in the text of Romans 11:20 why do you think Paul says "to fear"??

20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.

Why does Paul say in Rom 11:21 "Neither will he spare you" who is the "you" and what is the "you" supposed to take away from that instruction?

When Paul says "if you continue in His kindness" is "YOU" a saved person?

When Paul says "otherwise YOU will be cut off" in vs 22 is being "cut off" a saving experience of the saints that they will cary with them into heaven?

In vs 23 is "continuing in unbelief" a sign or reason for them "being cut off" if so - then what were they doing BEFORE they were "cut off for unbelief"? What was their start? believing? OR were they initially brought in "as unbelievers"??

Is "graft them in again" a reference to a saving relationship with Christ being restored - or some more frivolous idea?

As we explore the instructive answers to these questions we will see a very bright light shining in Romans 11 on the subject of salvation gained and lost.

They were even MORE compatible with God's plan than we are today. They could only FALL from such an exalted position. In Christ – the vine (John 15) the Jews fell and this is a warning to “us”? Only if OSAS is not true.

 

BobRyan: //It would take more eisegesis than the world can hold
to bend Romans 11 to the point that the Jewish branches
that were taken out "because of unbelief" - REMAINED in a saved stated!!//

Thank you Brother BobRyan, what you say supports my
contention: Romans 11 is talking about most Jews and many
Gentiles -- not individuals. Yet in the Church Age dispensation
(AKA: Age of the Gentiles, Age of Grace, etc.) both Faith
and OSAS (once saved, always saved; i.e. 'salvation')
are elements of individuals, not groups such
as 'most Jews' and 'many Gentiles'.

 

Is it your position that we should stop Reading Romans 11 because it can not possibly be applicable today? Was "it too" nailed to the Cross?

How much of God's Word remains in your view?

Romans 11
18do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.
19You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”
20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.

22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
23And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

How sad to imagine that "being grafted in" to Christ -- is NOT the Gospel - is NOT salvation - is NOT eternal life!!

The "other Gospel" of OSAS is "do NOT fear for being CAST OUT of Christ is STILL to be saved - STILL to go to heaven STILL to escape the 2nd death -- but as a second-class saint".

How sad indeed.

In Christ,

Bob

 

BobRyan: //Is it your position that we should stop Reading
Romans 11 because it can not possibly be applicable today?//

No. We should read Romans 11 so we can keep up with
the Jewish dispensations and the Gentile dispensation.

Recommend you use a language like Early Modern English (about 1611)
which, like the Greek, distinguishes between singular 'you' and
plural 'you'. In other words, use one of the King James Versions (KJVs).
Remember 'Gentiles' is plural, 'Jews' is plural. 'You' is plural,
'thee', 'thou', etc. are singular. 'Faith' is singular; 'OSAS = once saved,
always saved' is singular.

 

Ed,

Romans 2:11 tells us, there is no respect of ANY man with God. Romans 3:9-10 telling us, Jews are not better than Gentiles, because both all have sinned.

Romans 11 is talking about Calvary. Unbelieving Jews were removed because of their unbelief, but believing Jews are remain on the same tree(Cross), God just grafted Gentiles unto the tree to join with Jews, to become ONE same as Ephesians 2:16 telling us, Christ already break the wall down between Jews and Gentiles to reconciled both becaome ONE through Calvary.

John 15:6 tells us, God could removed us from the tree, if we stop abide in Christ, just same as Romans 11:19-23 warn us, that we should be fear of the Lord, to be remain abiding and believing in Christ, or we could be removed from it.

Obivously, both John chapter 15 and Romans 11 show us of conditional salvation with warning. Also, both are deal with EVERY individuals, not just for Jews only.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

This is not helping your case at all.

"If WE confess OUR sins He is faithful and just to FORGIVE US our sins - is plural - and FOR US"!!

"HE is the atoning sacrifice for OUR SINS and not for OUR SINS only but for the sins of the whole WORLD" -- shows GROUP level acts of Christ in SAVING the WORLD as our atoning Sacrifice.

There is just no way to spin Romans 11 as "not applicable to us".

Paul makes the case that "IF He did not SPARE THEM then NEITHER will he spare YOU" -- how in the world do you find an excuse to ignore that??

He says "You stand only by your faith" -- you then try to argue that until ALL CHRISTIANS abandon faith God will not act???

Do you really imagine that BEFORE the death of Christ Jews in rebellion against God were "saved anyway" since ENOUGH of them had not rebelled to cause ALL to be rejected??

How unthinkable.

How opposed to Matt 23!!

How opposed to Matt 7 "Not everyone who SAYS Lord Lord will enter -- but HE WHO DOES the will of My Father" -

How opposed to 1John 2 saying "The one WHO SAYS he knows Christ ought to WALK as Christ walked ... if he does not he is a liar"

How PERFECTLY 1John 2 agrees with Romans 11!!

In Christ,

Bob