Faith and Works

>I meant the works of sacrifice and circumcism not the Commandments

Please list the exhaustive commandments to which you refer.

 

HP what you and others are failing to realize is that it doesn't matter how much you dress up works with human words and human wisdom the fact of the matter is that salvation comes by faith alone by the grace of God alone.

You are saying that every saved person is going to do good works and the Bible just does not present that picture, so evyerone that doesn't have good works in your view would be unsaved, so salvation is directly tied to their works and whether they have them or not. That is works based salvation no matter how you talk about it.

If grace then no works before, during or after enter the picture. They can't because then it's not grace, but wages. That's what Paul tells us in Romans.

Grace is God doing for man what He requires of man and then giving man credit for it.

In your view grace is God giving man credit for doing what man is supposed to do while they also believe in Jesus. That just doesn't mesh.

It doesn't mesh and Scripture doesn't support it. But why there are so many people that continue to say I don't believe in works, but then espouse a works based salvation is beyond me. It's as if you all think if you say it enough times or you type it enough times that somehow grace will turn into works. But grace is grace and works is works. The only works invovled in grace are Christ's works alone. That's it.

Saved man is not even guaranteed to produce good works. Ephesians 2:10 says we SHOULD do good works, but it's possible that we won't. There are several parables that say there are going to be Christians that stand at the judgment seat of Christ and don't have a single good work to their name, but yet they are saved, becuase their salvation didn't rely on their works, but on the works of Another that were done on their behalf.

 

HP: I take it you are asking Brother Bob, but may I ask you a question anyway? Why would there need to be any ‘exhaustive’ list? Are not all the commandments wrapped into just two? “Lu 10:27 Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.” Doesn’t that sum it up nicely?


Sufficiently for you and me. Not for people who refer to the "Ten Commandments."

The Heidelberg Confession has a nice twist. It claims we obey the 10 from thankfulness, not from obligation. <G>

 

Romans, chapter 7
"9": For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

The Commandments slew Paul while he was still in his sins and to be made free it took Jesus Christ. Paul tells us what Commandments by describing "thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not bear false witness, etc.

The Commandments are still in force but for the sinner and ungodly so that sin may appear as sin and they are in your heart and mind put there by a Spirit the inspiration of God almighty that giveth him understanding and also by "the Grace of God which bringeth Salvation hath appeared unto all men teaching him that denying ungodliness, etc and to to that it would have to teach him what ungodliness is. The only way to be free from them is through the blood of Christ and then you are kept by the power of God. You could post all the laws in the world and if you do not commit those things then you are free from them. Example, "drunk drivers go to jail", well I don't drink so what does that law have to do with me? I hope this explains my position on the law for I believe it to be the same as Paul's. blessings

 

"sin" is defined - for both the lost sinner and the saint as we see in 1Cor 6 and in James 2.

The "Law" is still in place "defining sin"

Clearly Paul is “speaking to the shame of the Christians in Corinth”. He accuses them of defrauding the saints – defrauding each other. He claims they are not wise enough – mature enough – righteous enough to settle their own disputes. The focus of Paul’s argument is FAR from “Have no worries, trouble not your heart – there is nothing here to really worry about”.

The entire focus of this chapter is to “get their attention” warn them of danger. Judge them as being in error and demand that they return to a right course of action.

This point is incredibly obvious. It is the context, purpose, focus for the chapter and the following warning Paul gives – is given to demonstrate” the severity of the problem. He is not “changing subjects” or coming up with a “comforting thought”.

Paul appeals to the fact that a life of rebellion does NOT result in the inheritance of eternal life! This is the way he chooses to highlight his point about their needing to repent of the sin he has just charged them with.

Then Paul gets to an even more dangerous warning “do not be deceived”. He claims that they are either deceiving themselves or being deceived by someone else into thinking that they CAN engage in such acts of rebellion and STILL inherit eternal life. Indeed many today fall into that same trap – arguing that WHILE engaged in that life they are STILL going to inherit eternal life “anyway”. As if God is trapped in some kind of lock-box and can not apply to THEM – that which HE says is applicable to ALL. But Paul tells THEM not to be deceived on this very point. The very point they ARE deceiving themselves into thinking!

Paul fully uncovers the high level of severity in that shocking condemnation by warning the church that those who practice these things “will not inherit the kingdom of heaven”. His statement is not claiming that they are already going to hell – rather he is warning them that the course they are pursuing is getting them to this same point. He is urging that they cease. He points out that to continue is to fail of our inheritance!

This is the same format that we find ALL of Paul’s warnings about failure to persevere.

 

James 2 "So live and act as those who ARE to be judged by the LAW of Liberty"

"IF you Love Me KEEP My commandments" -- John 14 -- the pre-cross teaching of Christ the continues in the NT -- all throughout.

 

For sure Bob they are still there but by the blood we fulfill the righteousness of the law. By the Holy Ghost being shed abroad in our hearts we walk upright before God. I believe in a Christian whose steps are ordered of the Lord.

 

In Romans 7 Paul says "he is in agreement with the Law of God" in the inner man.

In Romans 3 Paul says this is not possible for the lost soul - who is apart from Christ.

In Romans 7 Paul says the Law is spiritual and that HE WANTS to keep it. He says there is a LAW of his mind that is at war AGAINST the LAW in his flesh.

This is the sign of the born again believer upon whose heart is written the Law of God. Only for the one born again can such a conflict be raging.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Paul gives us an Excellent reminder - SIN is STILL something for “God alone” to define and He did this with His Law. Specifically we see the “Law” being a quote from the Spoken Word of GOD Himself. The Ten Commandments!

Paul does not hesitate to point out that the perfect example of God’s Law is a quote from the Ten Commandments!

To understand this - real Phil 3:6 where Paul describe his spiritually dead state causing him to think that we was "found blameless". But when made spiritually alive - he realized the full scope of the law's demands and saw that he was condemned by it as FLAWED - a sinner condemned to death. As Paul points out in Romans 8:5-8 the carnal mind does not submit itself to God's perfect Law - it is not even able to do so.

He makes the point that God's perfect LAW which should result in life as stated "obey and live" - ACTUALLY results in death for us until we enter the Romans 8:1-4 relationship with Christ - resulting in "no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus".

Notice - Paul CONTINUES - even now - to say that God's perfect LAW still IS Holy, righteous and GOOD.

Here we see that the Law IS spiritual but the sinful nature of man is in bondage to sin. Bondage already fully discussed in Romans 6.

Some have tried to rewrite this text as if God's perfect law IS NOT spiritual but carnal and once we become spiritual we dump that bad-ol'-law. Paul makes the OPPOSITE point here and in Romans 3:31 where he affirms that BY FAITH we "ESTABLISH the LAW".

Paul says he “wants to obey” God’s Law and in fact “Agrees with it” saying that “it is GOOD”. He points out that only “sin IN him” argues against God’s Law.

What a great contrast to those who boldly fight against God’s Law today insisting that they do NOT agree with it and daily deriding those who DO agree with it!

When we compare this with the statement Paul makes in Romans 8:5-8 [ about the wicked, carnal, fleshly mind not being ABLE to even agree with God's Law much less submit to it - (for as 1Cor 2:14 says "spiritual things are spiritually discerned" there for the natural-carnal mind does not even "accept the things of the spirit).] - we see that Paul is AGREEING with the LAW - and so is transformed - a new creation, old things are passed away.

First of all those who war against the Law of God – the Ten Commandments “do NOT joyfully concur with the Law of God”
Second Paul identifies that part of humanity that seeks to wage war against the Law of God that is “Holy Just and good” - - he says it is the sinful nature that is waging war against God’s Law! How “instructive”.

When it comes to his OWN testimony Paul points out that IN CHRIST - he has come to AGREE JOYFULLY with the perfect spiritual Law of God. Transformed in the "inner man". This is consistent with His statement that faith is to “establish the Law of God not abolish it” Rom 3:31.

Again Paul makes the point - NOT ONLY JOYFULLY concurring with God's perfect Law - but in the inner man - in his mind - SERVING the perfect law of God. And then we find the first crisis for the new christian - what happens when the inner man IS transformed to AGREE with the SPIRITUAL, PERFECT LAW of God - and THEN finds the SINFUL nature at WAR with the "new creation"? Thankfully we have the WAR that is waged successfuly throughout our life- - by infinite God the Holy Spirit - as pointed out in Romans 8.

 

The NT is filled with instruction for the saints to KEEP God's commandments.

 

What you just posted is what I said when I spoke of the Law "drunk drivers go to jail" having no effect on me. The same is true of the Commandments for the Law of: "thou shalt not commit adultery" has no effect on me because I don't commit adultery, in other words the righteousness of that law is fulfilled in me because I don't commit adultery.

 

The reason Paul said they were for the sinner and ungodly is because that is who is breaking those commandments. Again, the reason we are free is we just don't break them. If we don't break them then we are keeping them Bob.

 

It is true that the condemnation of the Law does not rest on the saints (either in the NT or the OT) because we are covered by the blood of Chrsit for past sins AND we walk as Christ walked - in the new creation, having been born again.

And yet -- if we do sin - we have an advocate with the Father. So while the saints are those in harmony with God's Word - His Law and the wicked are those in rebellion against it -- yet the Law exists for both.

It condemns the wicked and points out their need of a savior. And to the righteous it acts as a perfect "mirror" according to James.

 

Christ said "IF you Love Me KEEP My Commandments" (pre-cross) and in the NT the "SAINTS" are said to be those that "keep the commandments of God".

The two commandments found in the Mosaic law that you metion above - AND that are quoted Pre-CROSS in Luke are

Lev 19:18 "Love your Neighbor as yourself"
Deut 6:5 "Love God with all your heart".

This is the WORD of God! No way to "abolish it".

They could not read Deut 6:5 and then burn the rest of their Bibles in the OT - and neither can we.