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Faith; Before or after salvation?

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by convicted1, Aug 17, 2007.

  1. ReformedBaptist

    ReformedBaptist Well-Known Member

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    It really is quite simple my brother. I love Him because He first loved me. I would not seek God, unless He first sought me. I would not come to Jesus unless He first drew me. I would have remained dead in my sins and trespasses, unless He quickened me and made me come alive in Christ.
     
  2. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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  3. ReformedBaptist

    ReformedBaptist Well-Known Member

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  4. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    Well, my intent is not to disgust you at all. Salvation is of the Lord entirely, but belief is of us, of which I in no way consider to be a work.
    For me to say anything otherwise so as to agree with you, then I would have to be Calvinist, of which I am not. I believe that God gave every man an opportunity to go to Heaven.

    1Ti 2:6Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

    For some reason, you take what I post as being personally against you. I do not have anything against you and post what I believe about man, not you.
    I really strived this time to try and post so as not to sound or be in anyway against you. I do not seem to have the right words to say. I will not give in to Calvinism, but it is not against you.

    Please allow me the same.
     
  5. ReformedBaptist

    ReformedBaptist Well-Known Member

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    Perhaps posting my opinion on the idea represented seemed as though I felt you were making a personal attack. I did not think so. Sorry for the confusion.

    One thing you have said here I pledge my life and what strength God puts in my mind and body and spirit to utter destroy and cast down this vain imagaination of men. And that is the idea that Salvation is of the Lord, but belief is from man. To say Salvation is entirely of the Lord, but belief is from man, is such a glaring contradiction and double-speak I can hardly believe someone could say it.

    Please understand, I mean no personal attack here. I am disgusted with the man-centeredness of the theology. I will pray to the Lord today and see what He may permit me to share in a new thread upon this subject. God willing, I would slay this Goliath.
     
  6. Jim1999

    Jim1999 <img src =/Jim1999.jpg>

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    I grew up in the Christian religion and always had "faith" in God and Jesus Christ. That faith, however, was transformed to saving faith when I realized Christ as my personal Saviour. Whilst I had faith knowledge beforehand, which was like having faith that the bridge I drove over would hold me, it took the gift of faith, imparted by God's Holy Spirit, to cause redemptive results, my conversion.

    Sometimes we confuse human actions with God's works in man, and this leads to misunderstandings in our theology. I always draw two parallel lines which meet only in infinity. We and God travel in the same direction at two different levels, and we shall meet only in infinity.

    We are instructed to pray for "things", but we fail to appreciate that even Jesus prayed, "Not my will, but Thine be done." This the end of prayer, that God's will be done. We come into conformity with the will of God. The same is true in theology. We tend to think in human terms, and often we omit the divine purpose altogether to satisfy that human thought process.

    Some have become more Calvinistic than Calvin himself, and hence resultant arguments based on false thinking. We cannot always balance the equations of why and whatfor. I preach the free gospel to all because I am instructed to do just that. Not for a moment do I believe scripture teaches that all will be saved, and neither do I believe that all have the innate ability to believe unto salvation. It remains the free gift of God, and that for His own purposes. If a sovereign God does not have all power, then He has no power at all, and it is His sovereignty around which all must revolve. Faith is a gift and hence demands a giver. Which comes first? Isn't it obvious? Man's freedom of choice is relative to God's gifts, and not t'other way around.

    Cheers,

    Jim
     
  7. ReformedBaptist

    ReformedBaptist Well-Known Member

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    :thumbs: Amen brother!
     
  8. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    Rev 2:21And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.

    I do not believe it takes away for God's Sovereignity for man to have the ability to believe or disbelieve, if God created man that way, then it still came from God.

    Rom 8:20For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected [the same] in hope,


    God made man subject and gave His Son as a Hope back to Salvation.

    Jos 24:15And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that [were] on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

    It seems as if these could choose.

    John 3:16
    15: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
    16: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
     
    #48 Brother Bob, Aug 18, 2007
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  9. Allan

    Allan Active Member

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    I appreciate your indulging me with this. It is in this we can better understand one anothers position through understanding the meanings of words that will be used here in.

    Though it may seem odd to you, the truth is that you are the second person I have found who states Regeneration (born-again) is synonamous with Salvation. (coincidentally the other persons name is Reforedbeliever :laugh: ) I have been studying Calvinism for over 7 years now as well as bebating it for more than 5 - and as I stated, you are the second person I have met to state regeneration is salvation. Most I have dealt with here and in person believe that Regeneration (or being born again) precedes salvation but of itself Not salvation. This is why I needed the clarification of what you held and how you understood it.

    Please remember, there are almost as many Reformed or Calvinistic views as there are different types of Baptists :) (same goes for the non-cal). So thank you for setting you view down.

    I will address your posting, (from which this discussion began). Right now I need to touch up and finalize a sermon I am giving today. We meet on Saturdays since we are a new church work in the area, and it allows people of other groups to come, hear, and see what the Lord is doing.
    The people here are what I call 'generationalists' or people who go to a particular church because their parents, grandparents, and even in many cases their great grand parents went there. It is traditionalism here and if you change churches, it is tant amount to social death here in DeSmet, South Dakota. It is sad that 95% of the people I have talked with hold to a works based salvation. There is not one baptist church here for 30 miles in either direction. It is mostly Luthren, Catholic, Methodist, and Menonites, with smatterings of Presbytarians, Pentacostals, and Wesleyians. One disturbing thing that I have found across denoniation lines here is the Word of Faith movement is held by a majority of the people in each of these denoms. Ok, I rambling, sorry.

    However the Lord is blessing, and those who come and that is what it is all about. The Lords work which He has made us partakers in and called up unto ministries that fulfill His purposes. And He did say that HE will build His Church and that is where I rest, not in me nor my ability, but Him who is faithful to His own Word and Calling - Amen.
     
    #49 Allan, Aug 18, 2007
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  10. Allan

    Allan Active Member

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    Interesting thoughts.

    IF not all men have faith but the elect only - Then how can those who according to scripture that DO have 'faith' ever have what scripture calls a vain or dead faith.

    According to your view all Faith is centered in Christ, it is that which comes from God that we will do His good will. And yet we find in many places that a faith which does not produce works (literally good works by faith which are acceptable to God) is a vain faith (empty faith), a dead faith (having no life or acceptability toward a living God).

    So how can there be 'vain', or dead 'faith' if faith is something that is given by God only to the redeemed?
    NOW - if you contend there is actaully two kinds or types of faith (God givin and mans natural) I have some questions:
    (1) why did God need to give a special type of faith other than the faith man already has?
    (2) If regeneration (in the Calvinistic sense) makes a man alive unto God and thereby has no choice but to choose God, does this regeneration not also make the faith within man already - alive or regenerated as well?
    (3) and if so, why is it now necessary to give this mystical new 'faith' to man, when the faith man already has is now alive unto God like the new man already is?

    The problem is, is that we do not find in scripture God 'giving' faith to anyone in the sense they never had it. Why - because it is something already present within man to use. But unless God intervene mans faith will always upon that which has no life and therefore 'dead' and 'vain'.

    Regarding Faith -
    Faith is neither Good nor evil (it is void of any of these qualities in and of itself), but it is the object of faith to which it has been placed which defines it's goodness or lack there of. The quality of faith is dependent upon the object in and to which it is set.
    Therefore, the object of our faith Christ Jesus is said to have come down from heaven, is He not? The very object in which our faith finds it worth or Godlyness/Holyness/Righteousness.


    I find no where in the scripture that God must give us faith because we do not have it. This has not been shown from the scriptures. There is Godly faith (because of its object) and ungodly (because of its object). But the fact still remains that man does have the ability to have faith (even the scripture accerts this truth) so why does God need to give this New Faith, when man is regenerated and all things become new? Is mans faith the only thing that was not regenerated and made new? If it is made 'new' then it was already in existence within man.

    It is a logical falisy and a scriptural inconsistancy of God 'giving' faith as though it was something that was never there or that it was not regenerated along the rest of the New Man of which Faith is the cornerstone of its inparting to us.
    When I say cornerstone I mean that unless we believe we will not be saved:
    And all the other verse that speak of believing unto salvation.

    I think more Non-Cals would have less contention on this subject if the Calvinist would say faith is something all men have but that all men can not use it in a saving way without the direct intervention of God towards man.
     
    #50 Allan, Aug 18, 2007
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  11. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    Allan, would you care to clarify this a little for me please. You say "with the direct intervention of God", You do mean that man can't save himself do you not, You don't mean that man can't use that faith to believe do you, "without the direct intervention of God to make him to believe.?
     
    #51 Brother Bob, Aug 18, 2007
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  12. Allan

    Allan Active Member

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    Man can not save himself - Correct.
    God must make man believe - Incorrect

    Man must believe or reject those truths revealed by God to man that can save. Just as 2 Thes states:
    They did not believe the truth that COULD HAVE saved them. God knew already they would not before they did not.
    Faith as shown above was possible, but the object the choose to have faith in was not truth but pleasure. Therefore or BECAUSE OF THIS God will make them continue to beleive their own lie -BECAUSE they did not believe the truth (that God revealed).

    The word itself for 'received' is interesting in that it means to take or catch. They did not take the love of the truth so God condemned them. Interesting huh?.

    Without Gods intervention man can never savingly believe. In reading post #50, you will see the context I gave is consistant with this.

    Does that help? Clear as mud ? :)
     
    #52 Allan, Aug 18, 2007
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  13. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    God bless you and I thank God for you and the way you can explain our position here on BB. God has truly blessed you with a special gift. I am still in the raw, maybe someday but I doubt it, I am 68 now...........:)

    BBob,
     
  14. ReformedBaptist

    ReformedBaptist Well-Known Member

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    Please forgive me brother, if I miss a particular point of logic you have shared here. I do not mean to. I think you have heard the term saving faith before. Perhaps in the context of sharing the gospel with someone that is obviously an unbeliever and they say, I believe in God. Sometimes Christians respond, even the demons believe that!

    I am sure Lucifer believes Christ died and rose again from the dead. Does this mean Lucifer is saved? Can he even be saved? No. Redemption was not made for him, or the other fallen angels (which men seem not to care except when God does not elect people).

    We say that THE faith of Christ is the work of the Spirit of God. "The grace of faith, whereby the elect are enabled to believe to the saving of their souls, is the work of the Spirit of Christ in their hearts, and is ordinarily wrought by the ministry of the Word; by which also, and by the administration of baptism and the Lord's supper, prayer, and other means appointed of God, it is increased and strengthened."

    This faith could not be already present within someone. Why? Because this faith comes by hearing, and by hearing the Word of God. This we know. Yet the Scripture also says, "How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?" Rom 10:14

    God sends preachers to preach the Gospel that they may hear and call on Him in whom they have not believed. If none are sent, they will not hear and will not have faith in Christ Jesus.

    You asked how men may have a dead, or vain faith. Is this not the self-same as no faith at all, or a pretended faith? James is certainly writing to believers in his epistle, and is it true that there are some who say they know God but in works deny Him? Is that the faith of Christ which we are called by Jude to earnestly contend for? Or, as Titus says, this salvation by grace through faith of whcih we speak, is it "Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works."

    Yes indeed, the grace of God (not man, or his abilities) that bringeth salvation has taught us thus. THIS salvation is the Salvation that is of the Lord...not of the Lord AND man.

    "But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ." 2 Thess 2:13-14

    Doesn't this Scripture strike at the modern notions of Arminianism? Listen to the Apostle brother. He is thanking God for us. Us who? Believers, brethren, who are beloved of the Lord. Why?

    Because God (the Father) has from the beginning (of the world) chosen us to SALVATION. Certainl included in this election is holiness of life and adoption as it is written by God in Ephesians. Yet here is more light on election. He has chosen us to salvation. And HOW will that salvation come to us? Through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: And how did this happen? Exactly what we have been saying, through the effectuall calling of God through the Gospel, for it is the Gospel that is power of God for salvation to everyone who believes. And the end here is also in view, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

    Call it calvinism or whatever one wishes to call it. It is the plain, clear teaching of Scripture. The sovereign election of God is clear seen in the salvation of men, not apart from their responsibility to believe, but showing that their faith and belief in the truth springs FROM God's choosing. God's choosing DOES NOT spring from our faith.

    I don't know what more can be said.


    I am editing because more can be said. Would you like to take a small diversion and discuss the Sovereighty of God and the duty of man? I see a fallicy in the belief that because every single man is duty bound to repent and believe the Gospel, it necessarily means they must have the ability to do so. This is the fallacy I see in your logic above.
     
    #54 ReformedBaptist, Aug 18, 2007
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  15. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    To believe he is Christ.

    and

    To believe in Christ.

    Is entirely and completely different.

    To believe "in" Christ is to have faith in Christ. IMO
     
    #55 Brother Bob, Aug 18, 2007
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  16. ReformedBaptist

    ReformedBaptist Well-Known Member

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    If you are referring to Lucifer either belieiving a fact, that Jesus is the Christ, and believing in Christ, then I agree. And thanks for helping prove my point. :thumbs:
     
  17. LeBuick

    LeBuick New Member

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    I see, I don't cater to the doctrine of the elect. I believe Christ died for all who will believe. Contrast if you will Jn 6:44 (except the Father which hath sent me draw him) to Jn 12:32 (And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.)

    I don't believe the Bible has any conflicts so why does it seem the invitation is limited in 6:44 and universal in 12:32? Could the difference be the audience?
     
  18. convicted1

    convicted1 Guest

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    RE: Faith before or after salvation

    RB,

    Lazarus was dead, naturally, and in the grave, so I don't think this is the same as far as salvation goes. I believe that this is an illustration of the last day when Christ will call, and all that hear His Glorious voice, will come forth first.

    If you don't have faith that God has forgiven you of your sins, do you think you are still saved?? I pray not!! I had faith that if I prayed the prayer that He wanted to hear come through my lips, from my HEART, He would save me. I have complete faith in the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. I had to have total faith in them, and the COMPLETE work of Jesus Christ, or I would still be a sinner. Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God.

    Willis
     
  19. ReformedBaptist

    ReformedBaptist Well-Known Member

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    So, your salvation is accompished by you and God, or did God do it?
     
  20. ReformedBaptist

    ReformedBaptist Well-Known Member

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    Scripture has one interpretation, but many appications. What I did is apply the Scripture. How have I errored from biblical doctrine?
     
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