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Faith; Before or after salvation?

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by convicted1, Aug 17, 2007.

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  1. ReformedBaptist

    ReformedBaptist Well-Known Member

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    I am not sure you mean by not catering to the doctrine of election. Election is a biblical doctrine, this none deny.

    What is universal about John 12:32?
     
    #61 ReformedBaptist, Aug 18, 2007
  2. TCGreek

    TCGreek New Member

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    1. Universal, yes, within the context of John 12:20-36, where the Greeks are seeking Jesus and then the ever present Jewish element.

    2. That takes care of both Jews and Gentiles, so yes, universal.
     
    #62 TCGreek, Aug 18, 2007
  3. LeBuick

    LeBuick New Member

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    What on believes regarding the doctrine of the elect. Predestination???

    Jesus said he would draw ALL men. Not the elect. Not the chosen few. ALL. How much more universal can you get?
     
    #63 LeBuick, Aug 18, 2007
  4. convicted1

    convicted1 Guest

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    RE: Faith before or after salvation

    RB,

    God saved me, but unless I repented of my sins, believed completely with all of my heart, and was baptized, I would still be in the world of sin. Since God saved me, my sins are condemned in my flesh. But, I had to BELIEVE on Him, not myself. It takes the "drawing power" of God to make a man repent. Man can not do this on his own. Jesus said except you BELIEVE that I am He, ye shall die in your sins, and where I am, ye can not come. You have to believe....you have to believe...you have to believe.....you have to believe!!

    Mark 5:34 And He said unto her, Daughter, thy FAITH hath made thee whole; go in peace, and be whole of thy plague.(woman with the 12 year issue of blood)

    Luke 8:43-48 tells the same story. pay attention to verse 48: Daughter,, be of good comfort: thy faith hath made thee whole; go in peace....Jesus said Her FAITH mad her whole, not His. He does, however, give us ALL a measure of faith.

    Luke 8:49 While He yet spake, there cometh one from the ruler of the synagogue's [house], saying to Him, Thy daughter is dead; trouble not the Master.

    Luke 8:50 But when Jesus heard [it], He answered him, saying, Fear not; BELIEVE only, and she shall be made whole.

    Luke 17:18 And He said unto him, Arise, go thy way: thy FAITH hath made thee whole(the one of ten lepers that came back to Jesus after they were healed)

    John 3:15 That whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have eternal life.

    John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

    John 3:18 He that believeth on Him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

    John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life; and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

    I think these "few" scriptures prove my point about faith. Ever heard of faith healing? Do you need to have faith before or after the Elders have laid hands on you? Faith HAS to preceed healing; whether it's dealing with "soul" healing(salvation), or bodily healing from God. There is no way around this, IMHO. I put my whole FAITH/BELIEF on God.

    Willis
     
    #64 convicted1, Aug 18, 2007
  5. ReformedBaptist

    ReformedBaptist Well-Known Member

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    So you do believe that your salvation is of the Lord and you. Not just of the Lord.

    When Jesus saw the men lowering the crippled man through the roof of the house to be healed, whose faith did Jesus commend? Was it the crippled man, or those letting him down? I am sure it was the faith of the one's letting the man that Jesus commended. Whose faith raised the dead? Certainly not the dead guy.

    Why do some have faith and others do not. Are you better than they because you believed and they didn't? Why did God forbid the Gospel to a certain group of people, but gave it to the Macedonians?

    I have no doubt that you are trusting/believing on the Lord Jesus Christ. But the Scirpture has taught me that such faith is in you by the operation of God. If you insist no, you sure have something to boast about...
     
    #65 ReformedBaptist, Aug 18, 2007
  6. ReformedBaptist

    ReformedBaptist Well-Known Member

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    The brother above answered this well. Every believer believes in election. Unless they deny the Scripture. Just people define it differently because they do not share a similar understanding of it.

    The reformed doctrine of predestination is extrememly offensive to the natural mind.
     
    #66 ReformedBaptist, Aug 18, 2007
  7. LeBuick

    LeBuick New Member

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    I thought Jesus wept for their unbelief?
     
    #67 LeBuick, Aug 18, 2007
  8. ReformedBaptist

    ReformedBaptist Well-Known Member

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    Maybe I wasn't clear. When Jesus raised a dead guy. It wasn't the dead guy's faith that preceded the miracle.
     
    #68 ReformedBaptist, Aug 18, 2007
  9. convicted1

    convicted1 Guest

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    RE: Faith before or after salvation?

    RB,

    For whatever reason I can't get through to you:BangHead: ! For that, I am sorry! I have showed you scriptures where faith/belief precede the works that Jesus did to those who He healed. He healed them because they had FAITH that He would do what they asked Him to do.

    2Peter 1:5-7 And besides this, giving all diligence, add to "YOUR" FAITH virtue; and to virtue knowledge; 6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience Godliness; 7 And to Godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

    2Peter 1:8-9 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make [you that ye shall] neither [be] barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

    If they lack these things(including faith) they aren't saved.

    Heb 11:1 Now FAITH is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 2 For by IT(faith) the elders obtained a good report. 3 Through FAITH we understand that the worlds were framed by the Word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

    Heb 11:6 But without FAITH [it is] IMPOSSIBLE to please God; for he that that cometh to God must BELIEVE that He is, and [that] He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him.

    May God bless!!

    Willis Fletcher, Jr.
     
    #69 convicted1, Aug 18, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 18, 2007
  10. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    When you accept a gift at Christmas time, do you play any role in the gift giver deciding to give you a gift, and ultimately giving it to you?
     
    #70 webdog, Aug 18, 2007
  11. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    Apples and oranges. You are referring to physical death in the same manner as spiritual. Spiritually dead people can respond. Even calvinism teaches a spiritually dead person will only choose that which is in their nature...and in the next breathe say a spiritually dead person is a corpse like Lazarus. Which is it? It can't be both. Either you are a corpse unable to choose anything, or you are not.
     
    #71 webdog, Aug 18, 2007
  12. convicted1

    convicted1 Guest

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    RE: Faith before or after salvation?

    I feel like we are all dogs in here chasing our tails...just going around in circles. God gives us everything we own. Our breath, our possesions, etc. He owns it all. But it is up to us to use the "gifts" He gives us. Look at what happened to the one who took his talent and buried it. It was taken from him and given to the one who had ten. He gives us all a "measure " of faith; it's up to us to put it to action. We work and buy things because He blesses us to work for them. If we don't work, we won't get those things. This is where I think we differ. I believe it take the "drawing power" of God to be saved. We can't come to Him on our own. But we can reject Him, if we choose to. I did for a long time, but when He worked with me again, I put my faith(given by Him) into action and gave my life to Him....I haven't been sorry of it for one second. Faith HAS TO come first. God gives us our faith, but we have to put it to use. If you don't have faith in God, you will die in your sins(not pointing that at anyone, just thinking out loud). If the prodical son didn't have faith in his father, would he have come back to him? If the woman with the 12 year issue of blood didn't have faith in Jesus' works, would she have touched His garment? He could have passed by her, and regardless of how much faith she had, if she didn't reach her hand out, she wouldn't have been healed. If the man with the withered hand hadn't stretched forth his hand when Jesus told him to do so, it would have stayed withered. But their faith in Jesus made them whole.

    May God bless!!

    Willis
     
    #72 convicted1, Aug 18, 2007
  13. LeBuick

    LeBuick New Member

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    Don't give up, try a bat...

    [​IMG]
     
    #73 LeBuick, Aug 18, 2007
  14. ReformedBaptist

    ReformedBaptist Well-Known Member

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    Perhaps you missed the part where I talked about Scripture having one interpretation, but many applications. I believe Brother Bob rightly pointed out that this passage and miracle was to manifest the glory of God in Christ showing Him to the the ressurection and the Life.

    However, I applied the passage as an example. To suggest, as I think you are, that the calvinist view teaches that men are spiritually dead and therefore cannot choose either good or evil is to misuderstand calvinism. Let me clarify.

    "Man, by his fall into a state of sin, hath wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation; so as a natural man, being altogether averse from that good, and dead in sin, is not able by his own strength to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto." Ch. 9: Of Free Will, 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith.

    From the same section,

    "Man, in his state of innocency, had freedom and power to will and to do that which was good and well-pleasing to God, but yet was unstable, so that he might fall from it. "

    The key here is that man, by his fall into sin, has WHOLLY lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation.

    I think you simply overgeneralized the calvinistic view my brother.
     
    #74 ReformedBaptist, Aug 19, 2007
  15. ReformedBaptist

    ReformedBaptist Well-Known Member

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    My brother, please don't damage your head. All the Scriptures you are quoting are completely in agreement with my monergistic understanding. No calvinist is saying men are saved apart from faith. We are declaring the Scriptures in saying that faith is not FROM man, as has been asserted on these boards, and something which, I must admit, I find very disgusting as it robs God of His due glory.

    Blessings,
    RB
     
    #75 ReformedBaptist, Aug 19, 2007
  16. Mr.M

    Mr.M New Member

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    "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved."

    Believe and you will be saved. Believe....and you will be saved. Believe and....you will be saved.

    1. Believe
    2. You will be saved.

    :thumbs: However, as you will discover, the simple will become the hangman for many.
     
    #76 Mr.M, Aug 19, 2007
  17. ReformedBaptist

    ReformedBaptist Well-Known Member

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    I understand the question, and I love gifts at Christmas time. I will send you a list if you are interested in sending me some.

    But I know where your going with this and believe it to be a false dichotomy. The questions springs from "accept Jesus" theology and is false. You do not choose Him. He chooses you.
     
    #77 ReformedBaptist, Aug 19, 2007
  18. ReformedBaptist

    ReformedBaptist Well-Known Member

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    Maybe you think if you say it over and over and over again someone might believe it. At least that's the method for brainwashing irespective of truth.

    The calvinist answer to what must a man do to be saved is, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalr be saved."
     
    #78 ReformedBaptist, Aug 19, 2007
  19. Mr.M

    Mr.M New Member

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    Indeed I do hope those that don't believe it do believe it, it is the Bible after all. And you object to this? You might want to loosen your noose, I believe the oxygen to your brain is extremely limited!

    "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved."

    Believe and you will be saved. Believe....and you will be saved. Believe and....you will be saved.

    1. Believe
    2. You will be saved.

    :thumbs: However, as you will discover, the simple will become the hangman for many.
     
    #79 Mr.M, Aug 19, 2007
  20. npetreley

    npetreley New Member

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    It isn't both. You are correct that a spiritually dead person will only choose what is in his nature. The only way man will choose differently is if he is given a new nature. That's what regeneration, or being "born from above" is all about.
     
    #80 npetreley, Aug 19, 2007
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