Faith Cometh By Hearing......

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by changed_like_saul, Nov 28, 2001.

  1. changed_like_saul

    changed_like_saul
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    Someone has said, The Georgia vs Georgia Tech football game last Saturday night was the best college football game ever been played. BUT I SAY, I can name at least two other Georgia vs Georgia Tech games that were better.

    From that statement, what is your conclusion? If I had not written it, my conclusion would be, Chris does not consider the statement about Saturday night's Ga vs Ga Tech game was the best college game ever played.

    Would you agree? Soumds like a trick question, doesn't it? Believe me, it's not.

    The Apostle Paul made a similar statement in Romans 10.

    Let's look at it......

    Romans 10:
    14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
    15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
    16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
    17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

    By reading this, one might come to the conclusion the Apostle Paul is saying no one can get faith without the preached word. And without faith God is incapable of saving without a preacher going and preaching.

    The Apostle is actually refutting the argument of gospel regeneration or gospel salvation in the eternal sense.

    Let me explain. We must read and consider verse 18 as part of what Paul is saying to make a point.

    18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
    19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.
    20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.
    21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

    Paul said, "but I say" not once but twice.
    We must conclued that his previous state is not what he considered the truth. i would ask all to consider these verses and to whom Paul was speaking to and what the real message is to those he is writting.

    Changed like Saul, by God's grace

    Elder Chris Foslom www.pbsermons.org

    [ November 29, 2001: Message edited by: changed_like_saul ]
     
  2. PackerBacker

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    CLS

    Whoa nelly, you lost me. Can you help me out and restate the question or what the topic is really about. Maybe it's just me, but my brain was doing cartwheels trying to figure out this topic.
     
  3. Dr. Bob

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    Changed - Do you really believe what you posted? I know that Primitive Baptists are as Arminian as the day is long, but that is about as twisted reasoning of a simple passage as I've ever seen.

    Just MY opinion. Others?
     
  4. changed_like_saul

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    Dear Brethren,

    My point behind this post is to correct a misinterpritation of scripture.

    Most folk quote Romans 10:14-17 as a proof the preached word is the only way a person comes to faith.....But I Say, the preached word has nothing to do with a person having faith imparted to them. For Faith is a description of the fruit of the Spirit (Gal 5:22). So, if that be the case, God is the Giver of faith and not man/preacher.

    Often times it is taught, the gospel is a means of eternal salvation. That it tell a person "how to be saved". But I Say, the bible/scripture has no eternal salvation power. Scripture does not give life, rather it "brings life and immortality to light.."

    2 Timothy 1:10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

    Scripture teaches only Christ can give life. All power was given to Christ.

    Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

    All power was not given to scripture, but to our Lord Jesus!!


    Brethren, my point......BUT I SAY.....is a statement which means, I do not believe the previous statement, or what was just said is incorrect, or I disagree. It is plan that Paul did not agree with verses 14-17.

    Paul often times states a thought or "doctrine", if you will, and then runs it to it's logical conclusion to show how that thought or "doctrine" is incorrect. But follows that incorrect conclusion with the correct one.

    Some believe Romans 10 is a chapter written about all, But I Say, it's written about elect Jews of Israel.

    Brethren, I believe if you will do a complete study of Romans 10, looking at who Paul is talking about, you too, will conclude Paul is speaking not of eternal salvation,but the salvation that knowledge brings to the child of God about the saving grace of God through our Lord Christ Jesus.

    I do not wish to offend anyone, but we must be accurate in our teaching of God's Holy word

    Changed like Saul, by God's grace

    Elder Chris Folsom
    www.pbsermons.org
     
  5. changed_like_saul

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    Brother Bob,

    BTW, you are the first person to call me Arminian. I assure you the Primitive Baptist are far from Arminian and so am I. :D

    Changed like Saul, by God's grace

    Chris
    www.pbsermons.org
     
  6. Chris Temple

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    This doctrine (as I struggle to understand it) seems to be teaching an extreme form of hyper-calvinism and even hyper-dispensationalism. :confused:
     
  7. changed_like_saul

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    Brother Temple,

    Don't stand on what I say......study the 9th and 10th chapters of Romans. Understand who Paul is writting about. The Spirit will open it to you. Stay in God's word. Forget what you have been told and let the word of God instruct us in all things.

    Brother Chris, I am a believer in the Doctrine of Grace. Salvation by Grace and grace alone. Christ finished the work He came to do and that means there is nothing else to do for eternal salvation.

    Check out my web site. It caontains real audio sermons by Primitive Baptist ministers, some dating back 30 years. If I could recommend a minister to start with...Elder Marty Hoskins. The first 5 of his sermons are on the Doctrine of Grace, sometimes called the T.U.L.I.P. Doctrine.
    www.pbsermons.org/hoskinsm.html

    Also, check out my churches web site and go to the Articles of Faith. Which gives an overall perspective of what I believe.
    www.zionpbc.org

    May God Bless You!!!

    Changed like Saul, by God's grace

    Elder Chris Folsom
    www.pbsermons.org
     
  8. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
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    Chris,

    I think you are off base here. Paul is not denying the truth of vv. 10-17. He is affirming it. He is answering a different question. His question is, "What is the Jews' problem?" If faith comes by hearing, why aren't the Jews saved. Certainly they have heard. It is in their own Scriptures. Furthermore, it is not that they have not known. They most certainly have known the truth. Paul is demonstrating that it is "not a lack of opporutunity that prevented Jews from being saved ... [Concerning the Hosea quote] Paul sees in the words a prophecy of the mission to the Gentiles: the inclusion of Gentiles in the new people of God stimulates the Jews to jealousy and causes Israel to respond in wrath against this movement in salvation history. From their own Scriptures, then, Israel should have recognized that God was at work in the gospel." (Moo, Romans, p. 667-8).
     
  9. EPH 1:4

    EPH 1:4
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    Changed_like_Saul: I agree with you 100%. I believe if we (God's children) would study more and stop relying on "bible scholars", we could understand more about God's Word. Dr. Bob, you need to learn more about the Primitive Baptist, they are not Arminian. www.pb.org. God Bless, Steve
     
  10. Chris Temple

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
    Chris,

    I think you are off base here. Paul is not denying the truth of vv. 10-17. He is affirming it. He is answering a different question. His question is, "What is the Jews' problem?" If faith comes by hearing, why aren't the Jews saved. Certainly they have heard. It is in their own Scriptures. Furthermore, it is not that they have not known. They most certainly have known the truth. Paul is demonstrating that it is "not a lack of opporutunity that prevented Jews from being saved ... [Concerning the Hosea quote] Paul sees in the words a prophecy of the mission to the Gentiles: the inclusion of Gentiles in the new people of God stimulates the Jews to jealousy and causes Israel to respond in wrath against this movement in salvation history. From their own Scriptures, then, Israel should have recognized that God was at work in the gospel." (Moo, Romans, p. 667-8).
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    OK - I'm beginning to understand. The orignal posts seemed a bit cryptic to me ..
     
  11. tyndale1946

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    Paul also stated in Romans 10:1-4 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they might be saved. For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone that believeth.
    Was Paul concerned about his brethrens eternal salvation... NO!
    Romans 9:1-5 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost, That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart. For I wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the services of God, and the promises; Whose are the fathers, and to whom concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all God blessed for ever. Amen.

    I'm of the firm belief that the Apostle Paul was only concerned with the SAVING IN TIME OF HIS BRETHREN. The blindness that had fallen on Israel he prayed that it might be lifted. He was so concerned with his kindred that he wanted them to see the same Jesus Christ that the Lord permitted him to see.

    He wasn't concerned about their eternal salvation for that was purchased by Jesus Christ on the old rugged cross. His brethren had a great zeal of God but not according to knowledge. The knowledge that only comes though the revelation of Jesus Christ. Though they didn't have that revelation the scriptures prove with out a doubt they were still of the elect.

    I agree with my other Old School Baptist Brethren on this subject Romans 3:3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect? GOD FORBID: Let God be true and everyman a liar.

    Faith is a gift and I can't get it by hearing the preached word. If I could it would be an act of a sinner obtaining that, that is Holy... God is not the author of confusion only man is... Just my thoughts... Brother Glen [​IMG]
     
  12. changed_like_saul

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    Brother Glenn,

    I am curus......are you related or know of a R. A. Tyndale out of Texas?

    He was once a very powerful preacher amoung our people.

    Changed like Saul, by God's grace

    Elder Chris Folsom
    www.pbsermons.org
     
  13. tyndale1946

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    I believe you are speaking of Elder Tindale and if I'm not mistaken he was from the Amarillo area. He spoke at our church one time. My last name is Ramsey and all my uncles were Primitive Baptist as well as my Dad. His Dad was Primitive Baptist and how far back the lineage goes only God knows. My handle is from the martyr Tyndale... Whose cry "God open the eyes of the King of England, brought about the KJV... Just thought I would clear that up... Brother Glen [​IMG] Just a sinner saved.

    [ November 29, 2001: Message edited by: tyndale1946 ]
     
  14. paul hadik

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    someone throw my brain a life preserver...its swimming in confusion right now.

    Let me get this straight. Y'all are telling us we don't need Scripture for salvation but we should study Scripture to find out what it really says...
    and Paul didn't care about the Jews??? He was sure stubborn in his dislike for them then as he kept getting bounced from one synagogue to another.
    And he went back to Jerusalem just to visit his mom? or what?
     
  15. PackerBacker

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by paul hadik:
    someone throw my brain a life preserver...its swimming in confusion right now.
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Hey Paul, I'd let you have my life preserver, but my brain is still using it on this post. :D Chris is way ahead of me if he is starting to get it.
     
  16. Pioneer

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by changed_like_saul:

    Most folk quote Romans 10:14-17 as a proof the preached word is the only way a person comes to faith.....But I Say, the preached word has nothing to do with a person having faith imparted to them.

    Often times it is taught, the gospel is a means of eternal salvation. That it tell a person "how to be saved". But I Say, the bible/scripture has no eternal salvation power.
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    You are as about as whacked out as you can be. But then again, if I was a Calvinist I would probably come to the same conclusion: We don't need any preaching to the lost to get them saved because God will save them no matter what if they are the elect.

    Let's see what God has to say:

    Hebrews 4:2, "For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it."

    1 Corinthians 15:1-2, "Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; by which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain."

    Sorry, but God calls you a liar. You are a lying prophet. Let God be true and every man a liar.
     
  17. changed_like_saul

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    Okay folks,

    sinse i am not as clear as i'd like to be when it come to putting my thoughts on paper (so to speak) i'm going to be very blunt about the issue. my intent is not to offend anyone, however, my stance on the Doctrine of Grace has, in the past, made people very upset. Here Goes!!!

    What did Jesus Christ come to do?

    Let's allow scripture answer this......

    Matthew 1:
    21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

    scripture says, Jesus came to SAVE HIS PEOPLE FROM THEIR SINS.

    My question now is.....did Jesus accomplish what He came to do?

    Yes, Jesus did save His people from their sins.

    John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

    If the job that Christ had come to do had not been finished then Christ would not have said it is finished.

    See, I believe in the finished work of Jesus Christ. The work that Christ did on the Cross 2000 years ago redeemed or paid the price for each of those chosen by God, the elect. Whether or not all the elect hear the gospel or not makes no difference. If they are part of the elect, then Christ died for them.

    People don't like this idea of election. People want to feel like they have a choice. We do have a choice, that choice is, however, limited to our nature. In our natural state (carnal), man has no ability to seek after the things of God (spiritual).

    Romans 8:
    6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
    7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

    The flesh (carnal), by scripture, is against God, an enemy. In the felsh, man's natural state, man can not seek after God.

    The scriptures only give us the picture of what Christ did for those God elected, as well as, practical Godly living which will SAVE us from the chastisement of God for our daily sins we commit.

    It's late and i'd love to go into some more but i have to get some sleep.

    God bless you all!!!!

    Changed like Saul, by God's grace

    Elder Chris Folsom
    www.pbsermons.org
     
  18. tyndale1946

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    If that is so then every scripture relating to the word salvation is eternal. There is no room for salvation in time.
    Here's a question Was the Apostle Paul saved eternally in the plan of God before he was struck down on the road to Damascus? What if that event never occured was he still saved?

    When the commandment came sin revived and I died. What did he mean by that statement? What commandment? What sin? What did he mean by he died? What did he die from?... Brother Glen
     
  19. changed_like_saul

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    Pioneer,

    your words are strong and your compassion is not........if i am wrong dear brother, then scripture says you are to treat me with compassion and tenderness.........or

    Matthew 18:6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.
    Mark 9:42 And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.
    Luke 17:2 It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones.

    Christ had compassion on everyone that offended Him. His compassion was to die for His people.

    Changed like Saul, by God's grace

    Elder Chris Folsom
    www.pbsermons.org
     
  20. Pioneer

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by changed_like_saul: Pioneer, your words are strong and your compassion is not........if i am wrong dear brother, then scripture says you are to treat me with compassion and tenderness<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Tenderness and compassion my foot!
    Your doctrine will send a person to hell!

    Jeremiah 28:15, "...The LORD hath not sent thee; but thou makest this people to trust in a lie."

    [ November 30, 2001: Message edited by: Pioneer ]
     

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