FAITH continued . . .

Here is something else that "popped" into my head; I know its scaaaarryyy:

Heb.12:1Before seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

2Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Greek word for "author": archēgos G747

Thayer's

1) the chief leader, prince

a) of Christ

2) one that takes the lead in any thing and thus affords an example, a predecessor in a matter, pioneer

3) the author


Greek word for "finisher": teleiōtēs G5051

Thayer's

1) a perfector

2) one who has in his own person raised faith to its perfection and so set before us the highest example of faith

So, it looks like it could also be stated, "the author and perfector of our faith". Perfect in some words actually means complete as well.


i am I AM's!!

Willis

 

I believe in the conviction of the Holy Spirit. Read about the ministry of the Holy Spirit in John 16. He came to convict the world of sin, of righteous, and of judgment. But the Calvinist will even do away with that and teach irresistible grace. He teaches that the unsaved must come to salvation because he is drawn with the grace of the Holy Spirit which cannot be resisted. This is foolishness. And it in no way demonstrates that God gives faith. The Word of God gives a person faith to believe. The Holy Spirit convicts the same person of his sin. Both must work together.

My position is proved and strengthened by the Scripture you quoted. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. They cannot believe unless they hear the word of God. That Word must come by a preacher being sent to them. It says nothing about God giving the unsaved faith. Why quote Scripture that does nothing to further your belief?

Your like the man who claims that Fords are better vehicles than imports. But you keep repeating the same mantra without any evidence to back it up. You will even give evidence to the contrary and say it supports your view when it doesn't.

The point Paul was making was a contrast of believers to unbelievers. Those who read the Bible and are not saved will not have the discernment that the believers have because they do not have the Spirit of God dwelling in them. Paul is making a contrast and is speaking to Christians about the topic of illumination.

He is not speaking about God giving faith to the unsaved. He says nothing about that topic, and you still have not given a single verse that says that God gives faith to the unsaved. He doesn't. The Holy Spirit convicts men of sin. That is the best that you can do.
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved.
The belief is man's own belief.
He must be confident that the person he is believing is the person presented to him in the gospel message--that is, the One who died for the penalty of his sins and offers him eternal life. That is why a clear presentation of the gospel is so important. Along with that that message the Holy Spirit must convict him of his sinful conviction.

That is why we have two verses in the Bible that directly deal with the new birth.
In John 3:5 You must be born of water and of the Spirit. The emphasis here is on the Holy Spirit.

In 1Peter 1:23 You must be born again ...by the Word of God.
--Both are necessary.
However nowhere in the Bible does it say that God gives the unregenerate faith. You teach this error as if it is truth. It is not; it is still error, and always will be.

 

I agree with this in that it takes the Holy Ghost to convict us of our lost condition. I also agree that it can be resisted, because I did for MANY years, I shamefully admit. But it does support my position. Until God showed me my lost condition, I didn't even know I was a sinner in His eyes. He opened my eyes to this.

Now how about the verse that states that He is the "AUTHOR and FINISHER of OUR FAITH????(Heb. 12:2): The word "author" is archēgos G747

Thayer's:
1) the chief leader, prince

a) of Christ

2) one that takes the lead in any thing and thus affords an example, a predecessor in a matter, pioneer

3) the author

Webster's definition of "author":

1au·thor noun \ˈȯ-thər\
Definition of AUTHOR
1a : one that originates or creates :
2: the writer of a literary work (as a book)

Webster's definition of "finisher"

1fin·ish verb \ˈfi-nish\
Definition of FINISH
intransitive verb
1a : to come to an end : terminate b : end 1b
2a : to come to the end of a course, task, or undertaking b : to end relations
3: to end a competition in a specified manner or position

Now the Greek word for "finisher": teleiōtēs G5051

Thayer's:

1) a perfector

2) one who has in his own person raised faith to its perfection and so set before us the highest example of faith

According to Heb. 12:2, faith starts and ends with Jesus.

Look Brother, anyone can hear the Word preached, but unless God enlightens their minds, it will not penetrate their heart. Man of his own will not come to God; it takes Him drawing him/her. I am one who holds to FW as much as, if not more than, anyone on here, but I couldn't believe in God(saving faith I mean), until He first, showed me how lost I was, and secondly, drawing me to Him. If I didn't have faith in Him when He began drawing me, I would not have come to Him begging for my life to be saved.

First off, I like Chevy's and Dodge!! :thumbs: :laugh: The way you are posting, faith comes either "during" of "after" they are saved?? Faith comes before salvation!!

John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

Well, Brother, I have really enjoyed this, but we are of opposing views, I reckon. I do not disagree with what you posted here, nor with a whole lot of the other, but until God enlightens us, we can not even understand one word of it.

Here is a scenario I will give you, and I preached this at my home church before, and they agreed with this wholeheartedly. Now, take the Ethiopian that lives in the uttermost remote part. He has never heard the "gospel" preached. Can he be saved without ever hearing a preacher? You betcha!! And I'll prove it:

Rom. 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Apostle Paul put the Gospel in its proper context right here. The "gospel" is something that man preaches. But the Gospel, IS God's power to save a lost individual. You can hear the "gospel message" your whole life, and still die lost. It takes God to give THE Gospel!! When God came to me and showed me lost, He showed me THE Gospel right there, but I was unwilling to surrender to Him.
Have a good weekend, Brother!!

i am I AM's!!

Willis

 

Good post Willis :thumbsup:

DhK;

DHK,
This statement shows a complete lack of comprehension of the biblical calvinist position.
Irresitable grace does not do away with the conviction of The Spirit of God

For you to say so is as you say foolishness.Some of you that post against calvinism do not demonstrate that you have an understanding of it.
If you did maybe you would believe it as well.

 

Willis admitted he resisted the Holy Spirit. Your dispute must be with him as much as with me. It is also with the Word of God.

Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye. (Acts 7:51)

Stephen plainly stated that not only those of his generation resisted the Holy Spirit at that time, but their fathers of previous generations did the same. It is plain as the nose on your face that the Holy Spirit can be resisted. Why then teach "Irresistable Grace" when it is obvious when it can be resisted?

I post against that which is purported to be Calvinism on this board. The Calvinists on this board contradict each other. I simply debate what is posted. The technicalities of Calvinism I will leave up to you. I will answer according to what is posted. Fair enough? So, if foolishness is posted, I will answer Biblically; and my Biblical answer will sound like foolishness to the poster, because of the position he has taken.

 

I agree that Christ is the Author and Finisher of our Faith, that Faith being Biblical Christianity, the same word being used by Jude when he said that we must "contend for the Faith." It has nothing to do with the word "believe," or "have faith," the verb form of the word, the action that we must take to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ in order to be saved. "The Faith," and have faith are two different things.

I don't disagree with that. When I came to Christ, I had been a Catholic for twenty years. Unlike others that you have referenced, I got saved the first time I heard the gospel. That may be unusual, but it is what happened.

Exactly. Faith comes before salvation. If I purchase a car I must have faith in the manual of the car that all that is in the manual is correct information. If the manual is wrong I may do damage to the vehicle. Thus the advice: read the manual first (but how many of us do that )
Either way I put faith in the maker of the car that the car is going to operate, and when I put the key in the ignition and turn it, I put faith in the maker of the car that the engine will start and I will be able to go. That faith does not come from God. It is confidence in the word of another, in this case the maker of the auto.
Biblically I put faith in word of the one who made me and gave me his word. His word says that I can have salvation and eternal life. I put my confidence in his message. How much more confidence can I put in a perfect God with a perfect message, whose promises never fail! When I do that, the Faith (salvation) that is given me, he authors and finishes from the beginning to the end.

Unbelief is a terrible thing.

We probably agree on more than we disagree.

I don't disagree with that. The faith comes from the message. The conviction of sin from the Holy Spirit; salvation is all of God.

 

DHK,
YOU QUOTE THIS;

Those who resisted the Holy Spirit are in hell now.No one disputes that and if you understood the calvinistic position you also would know this!

 

Hey!! Don't sic'em on me, too!! LOL

 

I think I know where our differences are at concerning this topic. Do you hold to a literal interpretation of Romans 10:9-17? I see this through a spiritual interpretation. Here's why. If you hold to the literal stance that faith comes by hearing, and that a "mouth confession" must be made in order to be saved, you have cut the "deaf/mute" people completely out. They can not "hear" the word in order to get faith, neither can they confess verbally with their lips in order to be saved. My wife has very good hearing, but in gospel terms, she is as deaf as a door. I witness to her, but it seems to no avail. The hearing of the Gospel(God drawing someone) must come from the ears of the "inner man". Think about this. Our natural man is of the earth, but our soul comes directly from God. Our natural body was created seperated from Him because it came from the ground He cursed. When God communes with us, He communes with the "inner man", because it came from Him. The natural man was made imperfect, and will be imperfect until He comes and raises it up on the resurrection day(I am talking about His children that He saved). So regardless how much He delivered us from when He saved us, He did not save our natural body, only our soul. This is why I hold to the spiritual interpretation of Romans 10:9-17. I am not saying that someone can't be saved that way, but that is not the only way He saves someone.

(((((AMEN!!!!!))))) That is wonderful to hear!!

But again, how can you even put faith in the message being preached if God doesn't enlighten your understanding? I truly don't think there's a "whisker's difference" in our stances, and may be just talking past each other. If you don't put your faith/trust in God, how can you understand anything you read concerning the bible, or what is being preached? When God convicted me of my sins, I began reading His Word, wanting to know what I needed to do in order to be saved. I went to church wanting to know what God would give His called men to present to me that would draw me closer to Him. I didn't know how to get saved, but I put my faith(that was given by Him) in Him, knowing deep down, that if I would call out in the right way, He would hear my sad cries, and lift me out of the miry clay, set my feet upon a(THE) Rock, establish my goings, and put a new song in my heart, even praises unto His name!!

I agree with this. Faith does come in the message, in the Word of God. But here is what the Word of God is:

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.

14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

I know that you already knew this. That being said, the Word and the Gospel are two different things. The Word is holy, clean, pure, sweet to the soul, pristine, and any other word that means "clean" you can think of. We we talk about the Word, it sends goosebumps going over me!! The Gospel is the Word preached in POWER!!! As I have heard many old time preachers say, "If God doesn't season what I say with the holy Ghost, it won't go anywhere but from my mouth to the ground!!" We can get up in front of 10,000 lost people and read the Word to them, and that's always a good thing, but the Gospel must come from God, if it is save anyone of those 10,000 sinners. See where I am coming from, Brother??


i am I AM's!!

Willis

 

You can quote Calvinism to me all you want; until you are red in the face.
First, I said I respond to what those on the board post.
Second, it is evident that I don't believe in Calvinism.
Third, I gave you Scripture that proves people can resist the Holy Spirit.
Fourth, writing to believers Paul said: "Grieve not the Holy Spirit," which is also a form of resisting. Would they also be in hell?
He also said, "Quench not the Holy Spirit," which also would be a form of resisting the Holy Spirit. Would those believers be in Hell today?

And fifth, through my own experience, I have seen my daughter resist the Holy Spirit many times in her teen years. I believe she is saved now. But conviction of sin would come upon her time and time again, and she would not get saved. She is not in hell today. I believe she is saved, having finally submitted to the Lord.
That happens to many people. They do not get saved the first time they hear the gospel, and even the first time they are convicted of the Holy Spirit to be saved. Often they resist the Holy Spirit and God gives many chances for them to be saved. If he only gave one and only one chance for people to be saved, where would we all be today??

 

DHK,
I posted a new thread with some helpful links to allow you to have a more complete understanding of these truths.

you say;

people resist the Holy Spirit.Many go to hell in their rebellion.
That is not what irresistable grace is about. It means for the elect,they will not ultimately resist, but will be enabled to believe.It is completely effectual.
Your objections have no merit.....grieving and quenching have to do with sin in a believers life, who already have the Spirit.
That you offer this shows again you do not have a grasp on the issue.If you want to resist truth you can. But I would not recommend it.
Your railing against calvinism is keeping you in darkness to these things.

To be quite honest...I do not believe you can give a biblical response to the posted resources,so you side step them,bec ause to post such error exposes the error of your system.