Faith is from Christ to the Elect

That is simply not true! This passage is no doubt between Jesus and Jews but Jesus is not making any classifications of one kind of Jew versus another kind of Jew versus gentiles.

What you said has application to Romans 11 but it has no application to John 6:36-70.

Jesus is dealing with the nature of faith regardless of the audiance. Faith is COMING to Christ and faith is metaphorically drinking and eating Christ, which is a metaphor of PARTAKING of Christ. Faith does not originate within man but with God and that is precisely what John 6:45 speaks about. This is exactly what Jeremiah 31:34 speaks about. No man will have to teach those under the New Covenant about God because all who are born again under the New Covenant (Jew or Gentile - Heb. 8,10) are taught directly by God because salvation is the revelation of God to man (Mt. 16:17; 2 Cor. 4:6).

You simply fail to understand the origin and nature of saving faith as it has no ethnic distinctions.

 

You are wrong, Biblicist. As for Romans, in Romans we are explained about why God hardened the Jews! Now, do not forget to answer my question about hardening. Here it is again:


Biblicist,
Explain something to me, Jews were hardened, so that when Jesus’ ministry came, they would not understand and believe. WHY DOES GOD HAVE TO HARDEN THEM AND JUST not NOT ENABLE THEM? You falsely claim that we can only believe with a special enabling given by the Holy Spirit. However, that is nowhere in the word of God. Just the fact that God has to harden people shows that we could believe on our own after learning of Jesus.

 

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.


Drawing is causual to coming to Christ and coming to Christ is a metaphor of believing in Christ.

Hence, drawing precedes coming.

Verse 45 defines what drawing is. It is being personally taught by God. All who have heard and learned of the Father as a consequence come or believe in Christ.

Verse 64-65 demand that such drawing is a gift of God and those not receiving that gift do not believe, do not come:


64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.


In both John 6:44 and 65 Jesus denies any man has the ABILITY "can" to come to Christ unless they are first "given" it and drawing by the Father is what the Father must do in order for any man to believe, to come to Christ.

Christ KNEW those who did not believe because He knew all those the Father gave him (Jn. 6:37-39; 10:26-28) and all the Father gave him will come to him (believe in him) because they are drawn by the Father and thus "given" ability by the father to "come" = believe in him.

 

Where in the world do you get that I believe faith has ethnic distinctions?

You are doubly wrong and then some, Biblicist. As for Romans, in Romans we are explained about why God hardened the Jews! Now, do not forget to answer my question about hardening. Here it is again:


Biblicist,
Explain something to me, Jews were hardened, so that when Jesus’ ministry came, they would not understand and believe. WHY DOES GOD HAVE TO HARDEN THEM AND JUST not NOT ENABLE THEM? You falsely claim that we can only believe with a special enabling given by the Holy Spirit. However, that is nowhere in the word of God. Just the fact that God has to harden people shows that we could believe on our own after learning of Jesus.

 

The Jews who had learned from the Father comes to Jesus, that is what draws them to God, for they recognize what Jesus says as God’s word!

You are adding to the scripture now.

God allows us to come to Him through faith, that is how we have access.

They were God’s FIRST, but NOW, they have to come to HIM through JESUS. GOD GAVE HIS PEOPLE TO JESUS.

 

The same sun hardens clay but softens butter. The difference is found in the nature of the substance not the sun. Likewise, all humans come into this world with a sinful nature and by nature hate the light as their natural response because they are at enmity with God and NOT subject to the law of God and neither indeed CAN be. The more light they are exposed to the harder they become toward the light because it is their NATURE to harden, it is their nature to HATE the light and to LOVE the darkenss:

19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

This is not the peculiar condition of just Jews but all men (Rom. 1:18-32; 3:9-20).

No human being who LOVES darkness and HATES the light will come to the light or so says Jesus - "EVERYONE that doeth evil HATETH THE LIGHT, NEITHER COMETH to the light." Who is the Light of the world? Jesus!

That is why the Father must enable man to come to Christ. He enables all who are given to Christ by the Father and none else:

Jn. 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

He does not say "that he should give eternal life to ALL FLESH".

He does not say "that he should give eternal life to as many as believe in him"

He does not say "that he should give eternal life to as many as come to him"

He says "that he should give eternal life to as many as THOU HAST GIVEN HIM"

36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

Who comes to Christ? ALL that the father giveth to me SHALL COME TO ME. Those in verse 36 saw him, heard him but did not believe in him. Why? Because the Father did not give them to Christ becuase ALL that the father gives to Christ comes to Christ
because God draws them and every single one the Father gives, the Father draws and every single one the Father draws comes to Christ. Note the repeated "should raise IT (him) up again at the last day" found in verse 39 and verse 44.

Whether your humanistic theology likes it or lumps it does not change the fact of it. The grammar, the context cannot be overthrown. All you can do and all you will do is PIT scripture against scripture as that is your only defense and that is the defense of all cults.

John 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

 

John 6:36 repudiates your whole interpretation. Jesus is talking to UNBELIEVING Jews not beleiving Jews and explaining why they would not believe in him:

Jn. 6:36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.

 

(Eph 2:8) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
(Eph 2:9) Not of works, lest any man should boast.

We are saved by grace, through faith, and not of works. Salvation is totally a gift of God; not of ourselves.

Biblicist, show me anywhere in the Bible where "faith" is a gift of God that is given to the unregenerate.

As I see it the only place where faith is possibly given to anyone is where that person is a believer. And that is only because he grows in a process of sanctification. It is one of the fruits of the Spirit. It used to be one of the spiritual gifts. If you still think that that particular gift is in use today then it is a spiritual gift. Does God give spiritual gifts and the fruit of the Spirit to the unregenerate/unsaved? That is a ludicrous position to take.

If thou shalt believe (have faith) in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, thou shalt be saved.
Therefore being justified by faith we have peace with God.

It takes some terrible verse twisting and eisigesis to make those verses say: Unless you belief with the faith of Christ you cannot be saved, or
Unless your justified with the faith of Christ you will not have peace with God.
--The latter is what SBM said he believes. That is not rightly dividing the Word of truth. It is adding to the Word that which is not there. Nowhere does the Bible teach that faith is given to the unsaved.

 

Is he in a cult?!
Yes God draws people and they believe but maybe God draws everyone and some believe and some don't?

 

Don't twist my words! I said that type of hermeneutics is the type used by cults. I did not say you or anyone who uses that type of hermeneutics is "in" a cult.

 

NO WAY does what you say here explain why God had to harden them! You believe and teach, that ALL are already hard. THEREFORE, EXPLAIN WHY GOD WOULD HAVE TO HARDEN THEM, IF THEY WERE ALREADY HARD, WHY NOT JUST NOT ENABLE THEM? You will never be able to give a biblical answer according to your Calvinist beliefs.

That is NOT about ALL men, only those who would NOT come to the light.

Where in the world would you think I thought that?

NOT ALL LOVE DARKNESS AND HATE LIGHT.

We have access by faith, that is what the word of God says.

Jn. 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
WE MUST ALL GO THROUGH JESUS TO COME TO GOD. That is why Jews now are not saved, that is why all who say they believe in God are not really God’s, because they must go through Jesus.

Oh yes Jesus does say he gives life to all who believe in him! In addition, you do not grasp that God GAVE THOSE TO JESUS WHO WERE FIRST HIS!

JESUS CAME FOR THE LOST SHEEP OF ISRAEL THAT IS TO WHOM SALVATION WAS OFFERED FIRSTLY TO. THE REST WAS HARDENED.

I only believe in the Word of God. You believe in man’s ASSUMPTIONS. NOW, I am not going to let you get away with not answering why God would need to harden anyone and not just not enable them!

 

I just did! John 6:64-65 interprets John 6:44-45. Jesus replaces the term "draw" in John 6:44 with the words "given" in verse Jn. 6:65.

He says he knows those who did not believe in him in John 6:64 and then explains why they did not believe in him in verse 65 BECAUSE "it" must be first "GIVEN" to them by the Father.

What is "GIVEN" to them by the Father is the ABILITY to "COME" to Christ in John 6:44 which metaphorcially is used to characterize "BELIEVE" in Christ as this is what the subject is about as introduced in John 6:36 and the metaphor "come" immediately describes in verse 37-45.

This is sound exegesis which you cannot possible overthrow if honest and objective principles of hermeneutics are followed.

That is an oxymoron! It is like saying the only place where wealth is possibly given to anyone is where the person is wealthy. It is an irrational statement as you are making faith the cause of faith.

You are confusing faith with faithfulness and they are not the same. You are confusing the work of faith with faith and they are not the same.

You are confusing things that differ. Why didn't you add also "the faith once delivered" to make complete the absolute confusion you are making on this term????

I said no such thing! Neither does the text say what you added in parenthesis. He is not talking about having faith as a commodity on hand TO BE USED but rather he is describing faith IN USE as an expression of complete trust "in" Christ receiving the promise of the gospel. This text says nothing about the origin of faith only the use of faith.

I don't agree with either you or SBM as you are both equally wrong. He is wrong that faith is a work. You are wrong that faith originates from believers as that is an oxymoron as only unbelievers can believe because believers already believe.

 

Why do you NOT acknowledge that there was a hardening? There was a hardening for many Jews, by God, so that they could not hear and He would save them. God did not enable them to come, HE HARDENED THEM.

You still have to explain why God hardened some. Why does God have to harden them if we are all already hard and cannot believe, as you so teach? I am waiting for your explanation.

 

Jesus explains the nature of man in John 3:19-20. Hardening is the natural response of EVERY SINNER to light. All that God has to do to harden sinners to the light is simply expose them to light - they HATE the light and thus what do you think the response of hatred does in regard to more light???

My illustration of the sunlight to clay and butter aptly describes the hardening process upon the lost - more light more hardening just as it describes the process upon the saved - the more light the softer.

 

JarJo,
Keep searching for God’s Truth, not any religion’s truth, only God’s Truth. When someone wants to teach you something, check the Bible, and see if what they teach you are teachings in the Bible. If it is not in the Bible, then do not believe in it. Believe in God, do what Jesus says.

I am editing to add: God draws everyone and many reject Jesus. I have many scriptures showing you this if you would like to check on what I am saying.

 

What you tried to explain does not prove your beliefs. You still have not explained why God would have to harden people if they were already hard. I am still waiting for your answer. I hope that you will give up Calvin’s teachings, and only believe what the Word of God says.

 

I want to point out to anyone reading, what Biblicist says here, this is his own wisdom NOT the word of God. The Bible does NOT say what Biblicist said. Biblicist uses man’s wisdom, which is rubbish in comparison to God’s word.

 

That doesn't show that "faith" is given to unbelievers.

1. You are arguing from a negative.
2. If it were God's will He could give ALL to Christ. He gives those to Christ based on His foreknowledge--the knowledge that He knows who will believe. It does NOT say that he gives FAITH to unbelievers. Why are you reading that into this passage?

That is not true. There is no indication that he gives the ability to believe, none whatsoever.
"He that comes to me I will in no way cast out."
It means just what it says.

 

Yes I would like to see your scriptures that prove that God draws everyone. Because it makes perfect sense to me but I'm supposed to verify it with the bible.

 

Ultimately, that is what a Calvinist must believe, in order to try to defend their false beliefs; however, the more they try to defend their falseness, the deeper they go in falseness.