Faith is the issue here, what is its source???

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by Jimmy J., Mar 1, 2003.

  1. Jimmy J.

    Jimmy J.
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    It seems to me that faith is the means by which one is saved, so where does faith come from?

    Rom 10:17   "So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."

    Faith comes by hearing and the gospel call is to the entire world; therefore anyone who hears the gospel has the capasity to have faith and get saved.

    It sounds pretty cut and dry to me. [​IMG]
     
  2. Frogman

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    Except for Romans 10.13-16, particularly vs. 14 which seems pretty cut and dried that 'they cannot call on him in whom they have not believed...'


    By the way, glad to have you to join us here on the BB.

    God Bless.
    Bro. Dallas [​IMG]
     
  3. Yelsew

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    Faith is an attribute of man, that is, something that is true of man. Every man has faith in something. So when we are told in the scripture to "have faith", the capacity to do so already exists in man. So it is not a matter of "having faith", but rather a matter of who one has faith in.

    Yes, one can have faith in many things and in many people, however when speaking of the spiritual realm there are but a few choices; Self, Satan, Jesus and God. Scriptures clearly tell us that faith in self has "certain limited rewards", and that faith in Satan leads to sure destruction. So that leaves only two options Jesus and God.

    All religions that claim one living God have faith in God. But there is only one "way" that Claims Jesus as Lord and Master, and that is Christianity. Christianity is founded on the claim that Jesus is the Son of God the Messiah, thus the one living God is integral to Christianity. Christianity claims that God has 3 persons, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and that these 3 are one God.

    Jesus says that Whosoever has faith in Him shall live eternally. I do! I place my faith in Jesus the Christ, therefore I am Christian. I do however have room to have faith in other people, but it is not the spiritually saving faith like I have in Jesus.
     
  4. Jimmy J.

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    [​IMG] Glad to be here.

    It also says. "How can they believe in one of whom they have not heard?"

    The obvious answer to this rhetorical question implies that the ones who HEAR can believe. So to assume that people are unable to believe in what they hear seems go against the basic understanding of this text.

    John 3:16 and many other passages use of the phrase "whosoever believes" gives the impression that "whosoever" has the ability to believe. To assume otherwise would require some kind of specific teaching that says something to the effect of, "Because of sin no one can believe the gospel when they hear it."

    Is there any scripture like that? :confused:
     
  5. romanbear

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    Hi Jimmy J [​IMG]
    Welcome to the board.
    Romanbear [​IMG]
     
  6. Frogman

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    Still calling on him is only after they have believed. Only after they have been regenerated can they believe and call on him for mercy.

    How do they hear? 'hearing by the word of God'

    First, Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God. This signifies the working of the Holy Spirit.

    Nowhere in scripture is it stated that man has a will that is able to believe the things of God, stretch it as you may, you just can't cover the gaps. But man is rightly described as being spiritually dead.

    God Bless.
    Bro. Dallas
     
  7. Jimmy J.

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    Still calling on him is only after they have believed. Only after they have been regenerated can they believe and call on him for mercy.

    How do they hear? 'hearing by the word of God'

    First, Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God. This signifies the working of the Holy Spirit.

    Nowhere in scripture is it stated that man has a will that is able to believe the things of God, stretch it as you may, you just can't cover the gaps. But man is rightly described as being spiritually dead.
    </font>[/QUOTE]Frogman, how does "hearing by the word of God" signify the working of the Spirit. BTW, the most reliable manuscripts say "hearing by the word of Christ."

    To me this is just saying that the message was first heard by the words of Christ. What do you think it means?

    You also said: Still calling on him is only after they have believed. Only after they have been regenerated can they believe and call on him for mercy.

    So you are saying that "calling on him" comes after belief and therefore belief comes after regeneration? I'm not sure I follow your logic.

    Here is the order I see it: The Gospel is Preached by the power of the HS----Man responds in Faith------The Spirit immediately is deposited as a gaurentee-----The man calls on the name of the Lord in repentance.

    I hope that clarifies my position, can you please clarify yours? Thanks
     
  8. tyndale1946

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    Yelsew where does this scripture fit in?

    II Thessalonians 3: [1] Finally, brethren, pray for us, that the word of the Lord may have free course, and be glorified, even as it is with you:

    [2] And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith.

    Brother Glen :confused:
     
  9. pinoybaptist

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    Hello, Jimmy J.
    Welcome to the board.
    Faith comes after regeneration since a spiritually dead man cannot hear spiritual calls.
    I think Ezekiel 37's valley of the dry bones pretty much gives a good illustration.

    I feel awkward with long posts, but here goes:

    Notice the sequences, dead bones (man is spiritually dead, even the elect, before regeneration), God gives the dead bones breath (regenerates, causes them to live, have muscle, sinews, etc), and then and only then will they know that He is the LORD.

    So, regeneration is independent of the Gospel call or Gospel preaching. If any man responds to the Gospel call, it is because God had previously regenerated Him, opening his ears and understanding.

    By contrast, today's "gospel" says man has to have faith first, before regeneration making regeneration dependent upon the response of man.

    Faith is works, albeit good works that has substances in it that makes it pleasing to God. Faith has humility before God, the one exercising faith knowing and acknowledging that he is what he is by the grace of God and only by the grace of God, that he is not faithful but it is Jesus Christ who is Faithful and True.
    Faith has trust in God, that He will perform what He has started to perform to the day of Jesus Christ. That nothing befalls him that is not in line with God's will, and no matter how he views it, whether he views it as good event or bad event, God only has good things in store for him.
    Faith has obedience to God, the desire to do what is the revealed will of God in His word.

    This is not every man's everyday faith, the one that Yelsew was referring to in his post. The faith that man exercises when he gets on the bus and trusts he will get to his destination. The faith that Mr. Everydayman exercises when he seats and trusts that the seat will hold his weight.
    The faith that Mr. Everydayman has when he boards his plane and trusts the plane has enough thrust to go up to the skies and carry him to his destination at 600 or 800 miles per hour.

    That kind of faith is conditioned faith brought about by things being common place. The cannibal who lives in the darkest, deepest rain forest and have never seen or been in an airplane will put up a lively struggle if we try to put him on board a plane. His faith has not been conditioned.

    For what it's worth.
     
  10. EPH 1:4

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    I agree Pinoybaptist [​IMG]
     
  11. Jimmy J.

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    I think you are taking great liberities with this text.

    Notice that before God breathes life into the bones he says, " Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the LORD." We know from Romans that faith comes from hearing, just because this text leaves faith out of the equation doesn't mean the whole counsel of God's Word leaves it out. There are other verses that don't mention Grace but only mention faith or repentance as being the means to salvation, but we don't assume that Grace is not involved.

    Preaching causes hearing, hearing brings faith, faith brings the HS, the HS brings conviction and complete understanding which leads to repentance and ultimately salvation. This is all made possible by GRACE.

    I think that the time between these activities could be practically unnoticable and almost seem to be happening at the same time.
     
  12. Frogman

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    That is fine with me, it's all the same Spirit.

    1 Peter 1.10-11

    God Bless.
    Bro. Dallas
     
  13. Jimmy J.

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    That is fine with me, it's all the same Spirit.
    1 Peter 1.10-11
    </font>[/QUOTE]Romans doesn't say "the Spirit of Christ" it says "the word of Christ." In fact the word for "word" is "Rhema" in Greek is used in conjuction with a spoken utterance, not just a inner spiritual moving. So, I'm still not sure what you think Romans 10:17 means. Could you be a little more forthcoming in your explainations? Thank you. [​IMG]
     
  14. Pastor Larry

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    1 Cor 2:14 tells us that natural man cannot understand the things of the Spirit of God because he does not have the Spirit. This is a direct contradiction of what you say here. Paul's argumen is that the Holy Spirit is necessary for man to understand the significance of the message so that they may have faith. You have people exercising faith when they cannot even understand it. This is but another place where one's theology and ideas must be subject to Scripture.
     
  15. Jimmy J.

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    Pastor, I respectfully disagree with your interpretation of this passage. You seem to be saying that man must have a full understanding of the mystery of the gospel before he can have a saving child like faith in Christ. This is simply untrue.

    Look at the context of this passage and I think you can see that Paul is not speaking about Salvation. Instead he is speaking about those who already have the Spirit who are seeking understanding the "deep things of God."

    I Cor. 2:10-14
    Now God has revealed them to us by the Spirit, for the Spirit searches everything, even the deep things of God. For who among men knows the concerns of a man except the spirit of the man that is in him? In the same way, no one knows the concerns of God except the Spirit of God. Now we have not received the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, in order to know what has been freely given to us by God. We also speak these things, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual things to spiritual people. But the natural man does not welcome what comes from God's Spirit, because it is foolishness to him; he is not able to know it since it is evaluated spiritually.


    Pastor, it is clear to see that Paul is speaking about those who have already recieved the Spirit and their understanding of the "deep things" of God. We know from other texts that the Spirit comes through faith.

    Galatians 3:14: The purpose was that the blessing of Abraham would come to the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, so that we could receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

    Faith does not require a full understanding of the "deep things of God." We can all thank the Lord for that!
     
  16. William C

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    Bravo, Jimmy, Bravo! [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  17. pinoybaptist

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    Jimmy J.

    Did I take great liberties on the word of God ?
    What is your position, that God sent His only begotten Son to die for the whole of mankind ? To take upon Himself the sins of all mankind ?

    Notice verse 11 of of the same chapter
    What we, whom some derisively call Calvinists, believe is that God sent His Son to die for the elect, the spiritual house of Israel, and for them only.

    Primitive Baptists differ from Calvinists in that we do not believe in Gospel regeneration, that is, that God regenerates thru the Written Word.

    I was pointing out that God regenerates His elect independent of faith, which is a manifestation of a regenerated soul, and not the cause.

    Notice verse 12 and 13:

    If I point out that the Elect's knowing who their Lord is, according to this passage, is after God did His work of bringing them back to life, am I taking great liberties ? Am I indulging in semantics ?

    Did Lazarus have an inherent life in him while he was physically dead ? Did his faith bring him back to life, or was it Jesus who brought him back to life.

    Would you rewrite Ephesians 2:1 that said "and you
    hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins" ?


    Your original question, or part of your original question was, where did faith come from ? I say that even faith comes from God. The natural man does not have faith and has no desire for the things of the spirit.

    But first he has to be regenerated, and regeneration is of God, and from God, and does not depend on someone bringing them the gospel, the gospel being the good news that Jesus Christ came to save sinners, which when preached to those who have been already given ears to hear, causes them to turn to God from idols and dead works and worship Him, but the preaching did not save them since they are already regenerated souls.
     
  18. Jimmy J.

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    Yes, I as I explain in the first post I think you did.

    If I point out that the Elect's knowing who their Lord is, according to this passage, is after God did His work of bringing them back to life, am I taking great liberties ? Am I indulging in semantics ?[/quote]
    Yes, you are assuming that this very allegorical text is attempting to explain the means by which God saves those who hear the gospel.

    Where does is say that Lazarus resurrection is a representitive of salvation?

    You are trying to equate Paul's analogy of "spiritual death" as equal to "physical death" to prove total depravity. When in fact Rom. 6:2 uses the analogy of being dead that obviously in not in reference to total depravity as Calvinists teach it.

    How are we made alive? "By Grace through faith."

    You are correct, it comes from God who sent us the gospel for "Faith cometh by hearing..." He has given all the ability to have faith. How many people do you know who are not Christians who still believe in God or a supernatural being? Faith is a common characteristic, the question is, "Who is your faith in?"

    You are incorrect. The gospel is the power of God unto salvation. How will they believe unless they hear? Regeneration is accomplished by the Spirit's indwelling which doesn't take place until faith. (Gal 3:14)

    I think Bro. Bill has pointed out to you all that the only ones who don't have ears to hear is hardened Israel. According to Paul in Acts 28:28 the Gentiles will hear.

    You are straying from mainline Calvinism. Most don't teach that no one is regenerated apart from the gospel, I'm surprised that you do considering all of the passages that teach about the gospel being necessary for conversion.
     
  19. Frogman

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    Bro. Jimmy,

    Christ said...'...the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit and they are life.'


    That is as 'forthcoming' as I can get.

    God Bless.
    Bro. Dallas
     
  20. Yelsew

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    By the quickening of the truth within us, it is the truth that sets us free! We Hear the truth, then Believe the truth, and the truth transforms us from our former selves, to our regenerated self, and by believing in Jesus, we have life eternal.
     

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