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Faith or logic

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by NaasPreacher (C4K), Oct 5, 2004.

  1. Trotter

    Trotter <img src =/6412.jpg>

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    1Th 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

    "Prove"- dokimazō
    1) to test, examine, prove, scrutinise (to see whether a thing is genuine or not), as metals
    2) to recognise as genuine after examination, to approve, deem worthy

    Sounds like the use of logic to me...

    In Christ,
    Trotter
     
  2. GeneMBridges

    GeneMBridges New Member

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    To say that faith and reason are contradictory in relationship to belief in miracles is to

    say that miracles are ANTI-NATURAL. Miracles are not anti-natural. They are SUPERnatural.

    Therefore, they are not logically contradictory. Therefore, they do not defy logic.
    Therefore, while human understand may not be able explain a miracle, we can look at the
    testimony that a miracle has occurred, verify its veracity, because we find that the Bible
    makes the best sense and can be shown to be completely accurate in all that it affirms, and
    this is all stated within a theistic worldview, which we maintain is logically
    noncontradictory over and against all other worldviews which defy logic by embracing one or more self-defeating premises and objecting to
    theism on the basis of logical fallacies that are either self-defeating or can be changed
    into arguments that favor theism upon closer examination.


    Supernatural events do not work against nature or occur apart from nature. Since God can
    perform such acts (and our belief in theism is proven logical and sound both with faith and apart from faith; since we conclude that the testimony that those events occurred as
    presented in Scripture are accurate and reliable accounts, we maintain that those miracles
    are therefore logical, though beyond our ability to understand using purely natural
    science. Geisler, "They suspend normal patterns, but they do not VIOLATE those patterns. A
    virgin birth is still a pregnancy, though without a human father. Water turned to wine is
    still able to intoxicate." Bread loaves multiplied are still real bread; fish multiplied
    is still fish, and both provide the same amount of sustenance to the body as bread baked by
    hand and hard work and fish netted, skinned, and cooked. These miracles fit into the
    natural order without being part of the natural order.


    We conclude, therefore, that, in a theistic universe, miracles like the virgin birth and
    the feeding of the 5 Thousand are LOGICAL, not be cause we can explain them, but because we
    know that God exists by both logic generally and faith personally, working in concert and
    not against each other, and God is by defintion a God of perfect logic, because we use
    logic, and we, as His creations can not possess in us such a quality, unless He possesses
    it. We may not be able to explain miracles scientifically, but that does not negate their
    logic or our being able to reason logically that miracles have occurred. Miracles are
    LOGICAL as is faith. That which we conclude logically, we appropriate as personal truth as well as objective, impersonal truth, and this is, by definition personal faith, not in propositions, but in the Person from whom those propositions derive and that those propositions describe. Therefore, our faith is in a Person, God, the God of the Bible. God is logical. Our faith is logical. Our reasoning is logical. Where faith falters, logic informs and assures. Where logic falters, faith informs and assures. Faith and logic work together, not separately. Faith, perfect faith, is therefore, inherently logical.

    I suggest reading Norman Geisler's text, Christian Apologetics.
     
  3. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
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    I see "faith" in the wrong thing all the time. Such "faith" is not to be lauded or thought upon as spiritual.

    How sad that misplaced faith has damned millions to hell in the pernicious cults abounding today.

    How sad that some think faith, without the true OBJECT of faith, is all that is needed. Faith in Jesus and His Word is what counts. Faith in man-made things of this world is sadly misguided and doomed.
     
  4. Ransom

    Ransom Active Member

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    Phillip said:

    Actually, this question is rhetorical. A triangle is the "name" we assigned to a three sided object.

    Logic has to do with proper definition as much as proper syllogism.

    Why don't you ask a question such as: "If God can do anything, can God create a rock that He cannot move?"

    The fallacy of that question also rests on inconsistent definitions, namely "ominipotence." It's really no different.
     
  5. NaasPreacher (C4K)

    NaasPreacher (C4K) Well-Known Member

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    I have been trying for a while to get askjo to tell me how does not mean that we are to prove, test, examine (use our logic)things in the light of scripture.

    It is logical for an omnipotent God, Who created all things to allow for a virgin birth. It is logical for that same God to feed 5000.

    It is not logical for that God to make a four sided triangle because then it would be a rectangle.

    I repeat, faith in a Supreme, Omnipotent, Omniscient, Omniprsent, Eternal, Immutable God is logical.

    Faith in one translation of scripture, without a shred of scriptural evidence, is not.
     
  6. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

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    Faith and logic are not opposites. Since we are in such a subjective, postmodern culture, it is really important to make this point.

    The virgin birth and feeding of the five thousand are both logical since God did them. It is not illogical for God to perform supernatural acts; God would never do anything illogical because that would go against His nature.

    Logic and reason come from God; He is a God of order and reason. So many Christians denounce logic and reason because they are thinking in terms of humanism and atheist scientists, I guess. But those people, if they followed the logic of the universe, would conclude there is a Creator.

    It is not their logic or reason that keeps them from believing in God; it is rebellion against wanting judgment on sins (see John 3. 19-20). God tells us that those who reject evidence of a Creator are suppressing the truth (Rom 1.18ff). It is not their reason that goes against God but rather that they are denying the reasonable evidence of a Creator.

    We are saved by faith, not reason, but that does not mean that reason is opposed to faith.
     
  7. AVL1984

    AVL1984 <img src=../ubb/avl1984.jpg>

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    Then would you please tell me, since you are so spiritual why the Bible says in Isaiah 1:18a "Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD"

    Reasoning involves logic. Seems God was logical in creation, also. Seems he was also logical in setting up a plan of redemption, and logical in the time to send Christ. Wow...God isn't logical?
    Give me a break. :rolleyes:
     
  8. James_Newman

    James_Newman New Member

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    There is reasoning...
    Mark 8:16
    And they reasoned among themselves, saying, It is because we have no bread.

    And there is reasoning.
    Acts 17:2
    And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,
     
  9. AVL1984

    AVL1984 <img src=../ubb/avl1984.jpg>

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    To reason takes logic James. So, I take it you agree that logic is involved???
     
  10. James_Newman

    James_Newman New Member

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    Hebrews 11:1
    Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

    The bible defines faith, but maybe you could define logic.
     
  11. AVL1984

    AVL1984 <img src=../ubb/avl1984.jpg>

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    Logic is putting that faith to the test, or should I say, putting feet to your faith? Faith without works is dead. Try all things, prove all things...this takes logic and faith.
     
  12. NaasPreacher (C4K)

    NaasPreacher (C4K) Well-Known Member

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    Well then please, reason with us out of the scriptures why we should support one translation only.
     
  13. Michael52

    Michael52 Member

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    Supremely logical! [​IMG]
     
  14. Askjo

    Askjo New Member

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    Amen! I second. [​IMG]
     
  15. AVL1984

    AVL1984 <img src=../ubb/avl1984.jpg>

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    Well then please, reason with us out of the scriptures why we should support one translation only. </font>[/QUOTE]Most EXCELLENT LOGIC, C4K! You da man!
     
  16. Michael52

    Michael52 Member

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    Main Entry: log·ic
    Pronunciation: 'lä-jik
    Function: noun
    Etymology: Middle English logik, from Middle French logique, from Latin logica, from Greek logikE, from feminine of logikos of reason, from logos reason -- more at LEGEND
    1 a (1) : a science that deals with the principles and criteria of validity of inference and demonstration : the science of the formal principles of reasoning (2) : a branch or variety of logic &lt;modal logic&gt; &lt;Boolean logic&gt; (3) : a branch of semiotic; especially : SYNTACTICS (4) : the formal principles of a branch of knowledge b (1) : a particular mode of reasoning viewed as valid or faulty (2) : RELEVANCE, PROPRIETY c : interrelation or sequence of facts or events when seen as inevitable or predictable d : the arrangement of circuit elements (as in a computer) needed for computation; also : the circuits themselves
    2 : something that forces a decision apart from or in opposition to reason &lt;the logic of war&gt;

    The Etymology is quite interesting. It says our English word "logic" is from the Greek word "logos". As in:

    In the beginning was the logos ... &lt;Greek&gt;

    In the beginning was the logic ... &lt;English&gt;

    I like that! [​IMG]
     
  17. AVL1984

    AVL1984 <img src=../ubb/avl1984.jpg>

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    I would have done that Michael, but, I truly didn't think James would understand it (just kiddin' James...so don't have a cow!) ;)
     
  18. Michael52

    Michael52 Member

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    Yeah, AVL, it is probably "Greek to him". :D ;)
     
  19. NaasPreacher (C4K)

    NaasPreacher (C4K) Well-Known Member

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    This one gets me folks - it really does. Christ is the epitome of logic - in essence He is the logic as Michael just pointed out. True logic is Christ centred. The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, and the knowledge of the holy is understanding. This, IMHO, is what logic is all about. "Prove all things" is the perfect example or real logic.


    Here are some examples of false, man-centred logic.

    I trust my Bible because God has used it for almost 400 years.
    I trust my Bible because other translations are different.
    Your non-English Bible is only a Bible if it agrees with my English translation.
     
  20. Ransom

    Ransom Active Member

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    James Newman said:

    The bible defines faith, but maybe you could define logic.

    Logic

    Put another way, all logic is simply an extension of the self-evident principle of non-contradiction: A and not-A cannot both be true.

    In other words, when you deny logic, you deny that rational thought and argument is even possible. When you say you will take faith and leave logic, you shoot yourself in the foot, because what you are saying is that when you speak, you make no sense. So why should we pay attention?

    Of course, no one can argue against logic without using it. Blam! There goes the other foot.
     
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