Faith or logic

Sorry, michelle, but the first part of your response BEGS THE QUESTION. It assumes that the KJB is the correct version and argues the premise. It also flies in the face of the KJB itself which has, in fact, as has been demonstrated over and over and over, ALTERED MANY TIMES. The effect of your stand is that the KJB is God's Word for English speaking people to the exclusion of all others. That's what ONLY means.

You are correct, God does call faith in Christ illogical to the unregenerate. However, we have faith in Christ and the mind of Christ, therefore, our ability to reason is informed by our faith, and therefore, our faith is reasonable and logical. The idea about human reasoning is not that it runs contrary to faith, Michelle, it is that it lacks the ability to COMPREHEND. Logic is the process by which reasoning is done.

I must know something in order to know Christ, namely that God exists and Christ exists. Knowledge requires the mind. The mind reasons using logic. I can not have faith without knowing what it is or in Whom I am believing and something about them. Therefore faith must have reason in order to understand something about the object of faith.

Scripture does not teach that faith and reason are always contradictory, and, in fact it teaches that God is always logical in what He does. Like I wrote before, your faith may be right, but if your logic is wrong you are on shaky ground. The problem with the KJB crowd is that they can't arrive at their faith statement about the KJB without using incorrect logic and bad exegesis. That makes their faith in invalid. Faith is inherently logical.

You, Michelle, are on solid footing with theological liberals. This is what theological LIBERALS teach Michelle. THEY teach that faith is illogical. Are you a liberal? Of course not.

Man reasons. His reasoning is inadequate because of sin's effect, but that does not mean that faith is illogical. It means that man's reasoning ALONE without Christ seeks to reject Christ/God, and he does that by using ILLOGICAL thought processes and reasoning from them.

We know God is logical perfectly because we are able to reason. Perfect logic results in perfect reasoning. Since we have the ability to think and reason we know God does too. Therefore, since perfect logic and perfect thinking go hand in hand, it follows God is perfectly logical. God performs miracles. Therefore, miracles are logical events beyond human explanation using his own means. It does not mean that miracles are illogical, because flawed logic is not something in God. God requires us to have faith, therefore, ultimately faith is logical, not illogical, because illogic is contradictory to God's nature.

Faith and Logic are complementary, not contradictory.

 

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I see that michelle is back to her old tricks of denegrating another persons faith and use of another translation of the Word of God. How pitiful. Michelle, posting of long sections of scripture can be done by us, too. Sorry, deary, but it just doesn't support one version onlyism.
Faith involves logic, however much you hate to admit it. To even reason involves logic. God is a God who expects faith, but He also expects us to use our brains. You are still talking in circles and that is a true shame. May God forgive you for being so blind.
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This above quote is wrong and incorrect.

What I have posted was in response to the topic of FAITH VS. LOGIC to which I used the scriptures (unlike many of you) to show what God has said about this, and from where my belief in this comes from.


Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

Michelle, I second. I agree. Amen!

Michelle, feel better now? If so, I am glad to see you again - Welcome back! God bless you!

 

Yes, birds of a feather in circular reasoning and no posting of proof. By the way, Askjo....faith requires the use of intellect....LOGIC! Duh!

 

Michelle, you flat out lie in your first post on this thread stating that NOT ONE MV USER has ever posted from the scriptures. This is untrue, and I believe if you go back through the threads you've been involved in, you will see that you've misrepresented again. You are still the same in that you misrepresent, blatantly lie and twist the truth.

Please, since you are so wise...show us how faith and logic DO NOT work together! The ball is in your court.

 

I would like for you to define what "only" means for me, please!

I read your posts about reasoning. Reasoning is argument. Webster Dictionary defines "reason" as "to argue." Therefore human reasoning is to argue against the Bible.

 

I would like for you to define what "only" means for me, please!

I read your posts about reasoning. Reasoning is argument. Webster Dictionary defines "reason" as "to argue." Therefore human reasoning is to argue against the Bible. </font>[/QUOTE]askjo...you're full of beans. I have the Websters College dictionary right here.

Reason: 1. a statement given to create, confirm, or justify a belief, conclusion, or action; a promise; ground; excuse 2. INTELLECT; the faculty of understanding, inferring and deducing, esp. as a man does. 3. Sanity 4. Moderation;right.---v.i. exercise the mind; reflect; think

You don't seem to be able to get much right these days, do you???

 

I answered:

 

Actually, what you say it says isn't really what it says. What it says is that the supposedly wise natural man is confused by the truth of God, not that the truth of God isn't logical.

What the wise man of the world does is look at creation, (and Paul tells us that the truth of God's omnipotence and eternality can be logically deduced from that creative evidence) and he deduces correct truths about God and then suppresses those correct deductions because he doesn't like the logical conclusions he gets. The wise natural man is purposefully antilogical when it comes to the things of God. See Romans 1.

That logic will tell us true things about God is part of what condemns those who don't believe.

 

I answered:

</font>[/QUOTE]Nice cut and paste, askjo...your source please???

 

I would like for you to define what "only" means for me, please!

I read your posts about reasoning. Reasoning is argument. Webster Dictionary defines "reason" as "to argue." Therefore human reasoning is to argue against the Bible. </font>[/QUOTE]False leap of logic. Because the definition is argue you say that human reasoiing is to argue against the Bible. However, that assumes that faith and reason are contradictory processes. You BEG THE QUESTION.

Likewise, the statement "Therefore...Bible" attempts to be a logical argument appealing to reason. You are using a process you seek to deny. Therefore, if what you say is true it is false, because you have to embrace the use of logic and reason in order to make the statement. Good job, you just demonstrated what it is to use a self-defeating premise, Askjo.

Logic is the process of sound reasoning. If we substitute argumentation for reasoning, it is the process of sound argumentation. It is the thing that God uses in order to reason with man that faith is required of Him. Faith and sound reason are thus complementary. Sound reasoning is inherently logical. Therefore faith and logic are complementary processes.

Askjo, theological liberals teach that faith is illogical, et.al. Are you a liberal?

 

I have Webster's American Dictionary and Thorndke & Barnhart Junior Dictionary. Both dictionaries define "reason" as to "argue."

Roget's II Thesaurus defines "reason" - "a course of reasoning. - ARUGMENT."

Thorndke & Barnhart Junior Dictionary defines "logic" as "reasoning: use of ARGUMENT."

 

I think you misunderstand what I mean.

 

Basically, I believe that's what he's saying, C4K.

 

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Seems to be a matter of semantics to me. The Bible teaches that we cannot lean upon our own understanding. Regardless of what we may be using--faith, logic, whatever--without the Holy Spirit, it is not of any consequence in the Kingdom of God. The same can be said regarding the different versions. It doesn't matter if you carry a KJV, NIV, NASB, whatever, without the power of the Holy Spirit you are unable to comprehend the Word. It's sorta like taking the "Bible as Literature" course offered by some of the secular colleges. It is the only way the bible tells us we can learn/study. How does one get this power? Surely, all versions used by the Baptists here agree on this aspect. Do we not have to give the old knees (or whichever way you pray) a good workout? And, hey, I'm old-fashioned enough to believe I have to miss a few meals every once in while, too. If any of you know an easier way, I'm all ears.

Love you guys (and gals, too). In Christ, of course.

God bless.

 

Basically, I believe that's what he's saying, C4K. </font>[/QUOTE]Wrong.