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Faith or logic

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by NaasPreacher (C4K), Oct 5, 2004.

  1. williemakeit

    williemakeit New Member

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    But C4K, we cannot think of as being a logical conclusion. Your supposition "Without the help of the Holy Spirit, as the Author of Scripture, we would be unable to understand it." cannot be derived from any logic that you or I are capable of. If so, then wouldn't every human be able to bascially come to the same conclusion by reading the same verse? I know, I know, some will argue that there are exceptions on this board, but basically we humans are able to think logically, or are given the ability to reason; however, that is not how we derive our understanding of the Scripture. If so, then I will only be able to reason with you on the Sabbath. :D
     
  2. Phillip

    Phillip <b>Moderator</b>

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    Michelle, it is interesting that you seem to appear to make a strike and then disappear when the kitchen gets hot. Again, as said before, the long quotes have nothing to do with a single version in English doctrine. That is modern day revelation at its best. If the Lord has really told you that, then we should put it in the Bible, because obviously the canon is not closed (in your opinion).

    Secondly, I am a little tired of the personal attacks (unlike many of you) is uncalled for. One reason that scripture may not be used is that THERE IS NO SCRIPTURE that promotes KJVOnlyism. Sorry, but your long list of verses says NOTHING to that effect. [​IMG]
     
  3. AVL1984

    AVL1984 <img src=../ubb/avl1984.jpg>

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    We've pointed that out to her many times, Phillip. But, she seems to believe in her mind that they do support her theory. The only problem is, the MV supporters have the same scriptures. And those BEFORE the KJV had the same scriptures. So, even though proof has been posted time and time again to show her wrong, she jumps to a word called "faith", as if those who use MV's or those who trusted in other versions before the KJV was available didn't have any faith. Sad, but it's true. This is her position in a nutshell.
     
  4. Phillip

    Phillip <b>Moderator</b>

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    Uh, Askjo, you are the one arguing against the Bible in the form of other translations, nobody here said that the KJV is not a good translation; it is just old and not the ONLY translation.

    Don't acuse US of arguing against the Bible. That is a typical KJVO attempt to make it look as if someone who likes a new translation, hates the KJV----just ain't so. So drop that argument, please.
     
  5. natters

    natters New Member

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    Askjo said "Therefore human reasoning is to argue against the Bible."

    Uh, you said "Therefore" - a word used to indicate a conclusion arrived at by using human reasoning. Can anyone say "self-defeating argument"?
     
  6. gb93433

    gb93433 Active Member
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    So I assume you mean that to include any KJV that was printed after 1611.


    Well I ‘ll use the same strategy on you. Use the KJV to prove that what you are reading in the KJV is scripture. You cannot. The KJV never existed until long after scripture was written. You will never convince me that the KJV is the same as the Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic text. For example I’ll give you one example to start with. In 1 Peter 1:4 where it says, “reserved in heaven for you.” is the word for “reserved” which is antecedent to the time of the leading verb., but the state that has resulted from that past action will be contemporaneous with the leading verb. Now my question how would you translate that word for reserved in English while accurately conveying all the truth that is packed in that one word? If you cannot then your translation of that one word is not totally accurate.
     
  7. gb93433

    gb93433 Active Member
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    Michelle is incapable of explaining anything logically so we can understand it. However, Jesus did quite a good job of explaining what it meant to trust him. The human mind is incapable of understanding anything beyond comprehension. Not everything is explainable. But to communicate it must be explainable.

    But I do agree that faith and logic are not always equal. Faith is Jesus and understanding the miracles are not logical at all. It is not logical that a baby could breathe after it is born. You can take all those elements and conditions and yet never produce life. BVut what God does is not always logical. You can explain al about life except how the baby goes from the womb to breathing. We know the results but are not able to reproduce the results. Only God can do that. He has done it over 6 billion times to this date. Man has not done it once.

    If anyone belieev totally in logic and that faith go together then explain God. You cannot because your logic has the limits of a finite mind. Whereas God is infinite.
     
  8. AVL1984

    AVL1984 <img src=../ubb/avl1984.jpg>

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    I don't believe, gb, that anyone has stated that logic and faith are always equal, or at least I don't recall it. I know I never would believe that. I do agree that a finite mind will never fully understand the infinite mind of God.
     
  9. gb93433

    gb93433 Active Member
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    AVL1984 Good!

    From what I read I thought that some were trying to equate faith and logic. I think there certainly is a place for logic such as in explaining our faith. But faith goes way beyong logic. See you have to understand that in my early years as a Christian I went to a church that taught if one were to study long enough and hard enough they would understand all of scripture. It was the earlier teaching among a number of dispensationalists. The history of early dispensationalism shows that it came right out of realism and then rationalism.
     
  10. AVL1984

    AVL1984 <img src=../ubb/avl1984.jpg>

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    Wow, gb, that sounds like a twisted church in theology. I don't think I could have taken that.
     
  11. Scott J

    Scott J Active Member
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    They're not equal but rather complimentary. True faith and true logic will not contradict one another. The truth is consistent with itself... or better yet, the Truth is consistent with Himself.

    We have a rational faith.

    Logic BTW demands the supernatural on some issues. Creation as an example- there has to have been a prime cause no matter what explanation you adopt after that.

    By logic, every effect must have a cause... ultimately there has to be a prime cause that got everything started. To cause nature, a cause must have eminated from beyond the bounds of nature.
     
  12. Askjo

    Askjo New Member

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    Basically, I believe that's what he's saying, C4K. </font>[/QUOTE]Wrong. </font>[/QUOTE]Like I believe it will do any good...please explain what you do mean askjo? </font>[/QUOTE]Matthew 16
    7 And they reasoned among themselves, saying, It is because we have taken no bread.
    8 Which when Jesus perceived, he said unto them, O ye of little faith , why reason ye among yourselves, because ye have brought no bread?

    Mark 2
    5 When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee.
    6 But there was certain of the scribes sitting there, and reasoning in their hearts,
    7 Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?
    8 And immediately when Jesus perceived in his spirit that they so reasoned within themselves, he said unto them, Why reason ye these things in your hearts?

    Mark 8
    15 And he charged them, saying, Take heed, beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, and of the leaven of Herod.
    16 And they reasoned among themselves, saying, It is because we have no bread.
    17 And when Jesus knew it, he saith unto them, Why reason ye, because ye have no bread? perceive ye not yet, neither understand? have ye your heart yet hardened?

    Luke 5
    21 And the scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, Who is this which speaketh blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone?
    22 But when Jesus perceived their thoughts, he answering said unto them, What reason ye in your hearts?
    23 Whether is easier, to say, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Rise up and walk?


    Ok, compare these passages that I give you to your verse:
    Do these passages and Isa. 1:18 agree each other?

    What does Isaiah 1:18 talk about?
     
  13. natters

    natters New Member

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    Askjo, I have faith that you are wrong. Why are you using reason to try to explain that you are not?
     
  14. Terry_Herrington

    Terry_Herrington New Member

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    Michelle, I second. I agree. Amen! [​IMG]

    Michelle, feel better now? If so, I am glad to see you again - Welcome back! God bless you!
    </font>[/QUOTE]I second Askjo, michell. Keep on plugging away at these MV supporters. Although it will probably not do any good, it is nice to see someone here stand up for God's English Bible, the KJV!
     
  15. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

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    Logic is not contrary to faith. No one is saying that we are saved by logic, but God expects man to use reasoning to see there is a God (Rom 1.18ff). In fact, suppressing this logical process and conclusion that there is a Creator makes one a fool ("The fool has said in his heart, 'There is no God'").

    Natural man is in rebellion against God not because he uses logic but because he denies the natural conclusion of using logic to see there is a God (see Rom 1 again). And man can misuse logic and reason, but that does not make logic or reason bad.

    God is logical; order and reason come from the very nature of God. No one is saying logic is superior to faith; it's not a competition. Seeing it as such is part of the problem.
     
  16. gb93433

    gb93433 Active Member
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    Yes Paul had quite an excellent handle on faith and logic. Certainly if you read his writings you see his logic loud and clear.
     
  17. GeneMBridges

    GeneMBridges New Member

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    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]

    Thank you, I'm glad you posted that. How ironic that, for example, the Scriptures, which we all agree were written under the guidance and inspiration of the Holy Spirit and are infallible and inerrant in all that they affirm were written with LOGIC. The very Scripture from 1 Corinthians that Michelle uses to allegedly refute the notion that faith and logic are complementary and not exclusionary rests upon logical argumentation. If faith isn't logical, then it can not be that God would use logic when setting forth His Word. (Note too that the context of the passage she cites is about the centricity of the cross. The cross is what defeats "human wisdom." Human wisdom in this sense isn't logic or thinking processes. It is the belief that human works can save, that the cross is unnecessary, and, in an even more specific sense refers to the teachings of the Judaizer regarding circumcision. It is simply the notion that human works in addition to faith in Christ are necessary for salvation. This passage has NOTHING to do with faith and the thinking process. In fact, since it is, itself a logical argument, it requires that the hearers and readers be thinking logically in order to inform their faith.



    By saying that faith is illogical, these folks are actually the ones using human wisdom. Can we say "irony?" By saying faith and reason are exclusionary, they cast their lots with theological liberalism.
     
  18. Ransom

    Ransom Active Member

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    You can't even say that faith is antithetical to logic without appealing to logic to show it. Any arguments that claim they are in opposition are self-defeating from the start.
     
  19. NaasPreacher (C4K)

    NaasPreacher (C4K) Well-Known Member

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    Basically, I believe that's what he's saying, C4K. </font>[/QUOTE]Wrong. </font>[/QUOTE]Like I believe it will do any good...please explain what you do mean askjo? </font>[/QUOTE]Matthew 16
    7 And they reasoned among themselves, saying, It is because we have taken no bread.
    8 Which when Jesus perceived, he said unto them, O ye of little faith , why reason ye among yourselves, because ye have brought no bread?

    Mark 2
    5 When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee.
    6 But there was certain of the scribes sitting there, and reasoning in their hearts,
    7 Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?
    8 And immediately when Jesus perceived in his spirit that they so reasoned within themselves, he said unto them, Why reason ye these things in your hearts?

    Mark 8
    15 And he charged them, saying, Take heed, beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, and of the leaven of Herod.
    16 And they reasoned among themselves, saying, It is because we have no bread.
    17 And when Jesus knew it, he saith unto them, Why reason ye, because ye have no bread? perceive ye not yet, neither understand? have ye your heart yet hardened?

    Luke 5
    21 And the scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, Who is this which speaketh blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone?
    22 But when Jesus perceived their thoughts, he answering said unto them, What reason ye in your hearts?
    23 Whether is easier, to say, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Rise up and walk?


    Ok, compare these passages that I give you to your verse:
    Do these passages and Isa. 1:18 agree each other?

    What does Isaiah 1:18 talk about?
    </font>[/QUOTE]According to your definition God tells us to argue together. Then, in the NT people are condemned for reasoning.

    Thank you for the clarification of my point. "Reason" does not mean argue, that is clear from Isaiah 1v18. To reason is to use logic, to think, to weigh things out. Something God tells us to do in Isaiah 1v18. God is logical. To accept Him by faith is a reasonable choice. This is one of the problems with one version onlyism - it allows no room for langauge difficulties which arise with the use of one word. Reasoning can be positive or negative. Reasoning based on God and His Word is logical, practical, and right. Reasoning based on human wisdom is wrong.

    One version onlyism is based on human wisdom and pragmatism. It does not stand up to reasoning from the scriptures, only to human reasoning and feelings.

    I have come to my own decision to use the KJV, almost exclusively, by years of research and many hours of study - reasoning if you will. I don't need to say that I use the KJV by faith, though faith is a part of it. I have faith that God promises to preserve His Word. I have reasoned that that has best been accomplished for English readers by the KJV and its underlying manuscripts. I have made, in my mind, a reasonable and logical decision. I am happy with it.

    [ October 07, 2004, 12:54 AM: Message edited by: C4K ]
     
  20. michelle

    michelle New Member

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    --------------------------------------------------
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Originally posted by michelle:

    This above quote is wrong and incorrect.

    What I have posted was in response to the topic of FAITH VS. LOGIC to which I used the scriptures (unlike many of you) to show what God has said about this, and from where my belief in this comes from.


    Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
    michelle
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Michelle, it is interesting that you seem to appear to make a strike and then disappear when the kitchen gets hot. Again, as said before, the long quotes have nothing to do with a single version in English doctrine. That is modern day revelation at its best. If the Lord has really told you that, then we should put it in the Bible, because obviously the canon is not closed (in your opinion).
    --------------------------------------------------


    First of all, I do not need to respond to every single post as I so choose. Second, I was unable to post today because I had internet connection problems all day today. It is not very good to assume things - do you not know this? Third, it is your opinion that things are getting "hot", as I do not see it that way.

    Fourth, not everything I post is supporting what you call KJVO. This is where many err, and where many misunderstand. I was, as I clearly stated, simply responding to the topic of this thread "FAITH VS. LOGIC" and supported my belief with the scriptures, for this is where my belief comes from, and to which many of you have not done.

    Last, please to not put words into my mouth that I have never said, nor do I believe as the following:

    If the Lord has really told you that, then we should put it in the Bible, because obviously the canon is not closed (in your opinion).


    I have NEVER said this, nor do I believe this.


    Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
    michelle
     
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