Faith or logic

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God is logical; order and reason come from the very nature of God. No one is saying logic is superior to faith; it's not a competition. Seeing it as such is part of the problem.
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You might want to look up the definitions for these two things: FAITH VS. LOGIC in order to UNDERSTAND they are CONTRARY ONE TO THE OTHER and do not "compliment each other". They are diametrically opposed. Please also read Genesis 3 in order to realize what happened to man after he ate the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, and what tempted Eve to eat of it.

And for those of you who claim God has said we are to reason with another to prove that God expects us to use logic in this issue, you might want to really contemplate/meditate and pray for the meaning of that passage. WE are to reason our sins against God and our true fallen nature with the scriptures/the truth, not reason the TRUTH OF GOD OR HIS WORDS OF TRUTH to come to FAITH.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

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Michelle, I second. I agree. Amen!

Michelle, feel better now? If so, I am glad to see you again - Welcome back! God bless you!
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Hiya Brother Askjo!

Thanks so much for your post. I am so glad to see there are others (you and Terry) who also understand this important truth.

Yes, I am feeling much better now. That cold flu was on and off for some time. Hopefully it is fully gone. Thank you for welcoming me back and for your concern and it is great seeing you again! I have been reading these threads but have not felt the need to respond until this one. I probably won't be posting as much anymore, but will continue to read, and post as I feel led. By the way, thank you so much for your kindness toward my unsaved hubby on the other thread this weekend. I really, really appreciated that. You are such a kind christian man. May our Lord continue to richly bless you and your family.


Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

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Yes Paul had quite an excellent handle on faith and logic. Certainly if you read his writings you see his logic loud and clear.
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Paul didn't use his own human reasoning and logic, but HIS FAITH

 

continued... (sorry, somehow the add reply button was accidentally hit while I was typing)

... and wisdom of God Almighty through his FAITH. As the scriptures say, and Paul stated:

1 Corinthians 1

1. Paul called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,
2. Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:
3. Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
4. I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ;
5. That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and in all knowledge;
6. Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you:
7. So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:
8. Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9. God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.
10. Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.
11. For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.
12. Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
13. Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
14. I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;
15. Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.
16. And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.
17. For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
18. For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
19. For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
20. Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
21. For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
22. For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
23. But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
24. But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
25. Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
26. For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
27. But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
28. And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
29. That no flesh should glory in his presence.
30. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
31. That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

Michelle, I second. I agree. Amen!

Michelle, feel better now? If so, I am glad to see you again - Welcome back! God bless you! </font>[/QUOTE]I second Askjo, michell. Keep on plugging away at these MV supporters. Although it will probably not do any good, it is nice to see someone here stand up for God's English Bible, the KJV! </font>[/QUOTE]How do you consider circular reasoning "standing up for" Terry. It isn't standing up for anything when there is no proof posted. As many here have stated many times, there are the same scriptures in the MV's. It's funny you would have to stand behind a woman to do the majority of your battle for you. And those who use the MV's have "God's English Bible". You've yet to prove they don't. The biggest problem is that you nor michelle will ever be able to prove they don't.

 

Again, Michelle, circular reasoning. You are REASONING in your statements above, using man's reasoning. You falsely accuse others of not understanding. How can one understand anything you say when you cannot even clearly present a logical argument??? Faith and Logic are far from "diametrically opposed" as you stated, and many here have posted the proof of this, using scripture, though you refuse to accept the scriptures. Again...who is the blind one, Michelle??? Who is the one who is not using their sense of logic when they post. YOU ARE. You contradict yourself, and that is a really a shame. In order for people to be saved...they must comprehend (LOGIC) that they are a sinner. In order for people to understand the leading of the Lord people must comprehend (LOGIC) what He wants them to do and step out on faith and do it. To live a Christian life and grow one must read the Bible, whatever translation they choose and feel led of the Lord to use (LOGIC) and apply it to their lives. How are they diametrically opposed. THEY AREN'T!!! Clear and simple. But, then, if you would understand, you would understand (LOGIC).

 

Actually, Michelle, he used BOTH. He was a well trained religious man (LOGIC) and then accepted the Lord on the Damascus Road (LOGIC AND FAITH in the fact that it was only logical for him to follow by faith someone who had proven himself to be God in the vision). Faith without works (PROOF OF SAID FAITH&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;LOGIC) is dead.

 

Michelle...the verse that you had "bolded" is in the NIV also...so your point is???? It's listed below...

I Cor 1:17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel--not with words of human wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.

So, again, your point???? Same thing in todays venacular.

 

True, C4K, and it is sad, because they are knowingly (and many unknowingly) dividing and hurting the cause of Christ. Christ, when someone came to him and told him that someone else was preaching the gospel said to leave them alone...that whoever was not against HIM (and those who use the MV's ARE NOT AGAINST CHRIST), are for HIM. When will they understand? Only the good Lord knows.

 

Yours is a demonstrably false assertion. Are you saying that the Truth is contrary to itself?

This is only an attempt on your part to excuse yourself from things that God does not require us to have "faith" about. When God providentially provides us with the "sight" of facts, we cannot legitimately point to faith as an means of dispensing with the facts. That is dishonest. That is sinful.

But you have developed a whole system of belief around that very idea. When someone shows you irrefutable truth that you are wrong, you appeal to "faith" as a means of evading the proof.

The biggest trouble with this method is that your faith isn't even based on the clear revelation of scripture. It is based on what you "feel" about what scripture says. Sorry but your emotional attachment to an idea that is supported by neither scripture nor a biblically principled treatment of known facts is anything but truth.

Her feelings and desires. It wasn't logic. Logic would have first reminded her of the God that walked with them daily in the evening. It would have reminded her of His power in creating everything. It would have reminded her of the power of His presence. And finally, it would have reminded her of His solemn warning that she would suffer and die if she ate the fruit.

She had objective, concrete, logical reasons not to do it. Yet she made the completely irrational choice of disobedience. Notably, she was willingly deceived by an deceptive extension of scripture. Satan went beyond what the scripture said to appeal to Eve on an emotional, vain level.

I am sorry to have to point this out- but you persistently stretch scripture in an effort to make it say something it doesn't. You must do this to rationalize your non-factual, unscriptural attachment to KJVO ideas.

Satan's methods of deceiving people haven't really changed all that much.

 

Jesus won't be able to answer your question but maybe some of the KJVO's can do it by communicating faith without words. But Jesus being God never made such a claim that He could communicate the gospel without words.

Some of the KJVO's say we jsut don't understand, that we must have faith. Doesn't the word understand imply some sort of comprehension. I guess what they are really saying is we don't faith it their way. The more I read of their postings the more I am convinced they are Pentecostals at heart or maybe Mormons in Baptist clothes. I just can't seem to understand scripture with a burning in the bosom. Now if I am near a very hot fire then my God given senses tell me to move away. I don't need a theological treatise on that to know enough for what I need at the moment.

 

Unless, you are one of those that believes that gospel in the stars stuff.

 

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Her feelings and desires. It wasn't logic. Logic would have first reminded her of the God that walked with them daily in the evening. It would have reminded her of His power in creating everything. It would have reminded her of the power of His presence. And finally, it would have reminded her of His solemn warning that she would suffer and die if she ate the fruit.

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This is what the scriptures say:


Genesis 3

5. For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
6. And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
7. And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.


Eve reasoned it. She lacked FAITH in what God had said (God's logic and wisdom), and reasoned it with her own mind based upon her desires. She would have already been wise, if she had believed/had unquestioning belief and obeyed what God had said and would have been already wise and logical through FAITH in God and HIS WISDOM AND TRUTH, but she must not have because she desired the fruit to make one wise. We are only wise and logical in the wisdom and truth of God, not of our own. Our own human reasoning, logic and wisdom is decieving and will always lead us to fall.


You can continue to call my Faith in this issue a sin, or mormon-like, etc. all you desire to. The FACT is that this is not true, and just because you say it, doesn't make it so, and someday you will know it. Many continually accuse me and others of such things, questioning not only our salvation, but doing so without any scriptural references or support for such accusations, and false ones at that.
Amazing.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle


love in Jesus Christ our

 

Ooops...there goes Michelle the martyr again. Many here have posted scripture, from other versions even to prove you wrong. The accusations leveled at you by the many here on the forum are far from baseless.
You're nothing more than a hit and run poster who attacks and hides when things get tough. That's the truth of the matter. You still have yet to answer why you believe the KJV teaches one version onlyism.

 

Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle [/QB][/QUOTE]

Not true Michelle. You have said more than once that the Holy Spirit guided you and showed you that the KJV is the only true Bible and that is the reason you are of the KJVO persuasion. This is exactly what I meant by "God told you". The two concepts are synonymous.

 

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How do you consider circular reasoning "standing up for" Terry. It isn't standing up for anything when there is no proof posted. As many here have stated many times, there are the same scriptures in the MV's. It's funny you would have to stand behind a woman to do the majority of your battle for you. And those who use the MV's have "God's English Bible". You've yet to prove they don't. The biggest problem is that you nor michelle will ever be able to prove they don't.
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I am not here to PROVE anything. The Lord has said:

Matthew 12

39. But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:


and...


1 Cor. 1

17. For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
18. For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
19. For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
20. Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
21. For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
22. For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
23. But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
24. But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
25. Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
26. For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
27. But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
28. And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
29. That no flesh should glory in his presence.
30. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
31. That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.


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As many here have stated many times, there are the same scriptures in the MV's.
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The FACT of this issue, and the whole reason for this debate, is that they do not. They have ALTERED the words of truth - the scriptures to which many are trying to warn you of in truth and love.


Many here unfortunately have turned this into some sort of sports game: my team is better than your team, or how dare you say something bad about my team, when your team has done this. This is not a SPORTS GAME folks, and the words of the Lord are not some sports team or game to be arguing about. We are here discussing the SCRIPTURES - THE VERY WORDS OF THE LORD! This is not a game about my version is better than your version, or how dare you put down my favorite version. We do not have a multitude of flavors of the scriptures, as God and his word of truth is not an ice cream parlor to choose which flavor we so desire to choose. THe scriptures are the words of the Lord and are the ABSOLUTE TRUTH and ABSOLUTELY WITHOUT ERROR OR FLAW. The truth does not come in a variety of flavors. It only comes in one. The FACT of this issue is that there are ingrediants MISSING from, or ADDED TO or changed in the modern version flavors of the month to which introduce a tampering of the real thing. The chicken you buy at KFC is no longer real chicken, but looks like, tastes, and smells like the real thing. However, it is genetically engineered chicken, and to the discerning can be picked up by the taste that it is not the real thing, but a clone of the real thing.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

Again, LONG CUT AND PASTE of scriptures that have ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with the subject at hand. We are not seeking a sign, michelle....we are seeking to find out if you have any real intelligence, which so far you have led us to believe you don't. It's sad, but it's true. Circular reasoning and long posts of scripture prove nothing. I can post those scriptures from several different versions. The same thing in todays venacular. The KJV has added and taken away, and this has been shown many times, yet you hold to a book that has done such and vehemently deny these changes, though they've been pointed out time and time again. If the KJV is the perfect word of God, why so many changes over 200 years time? If the KJV is the perfect Word of God, which version is it. We would like to know so that we can all have it. See.....posting long rants from scripture, and version, doesn't back up your points. Where are your outside sources...historical documentation, and other signs of intelligence? ALL documents, including the Bible require such. You have provided nothing but your opinion. It's a shame....a true shame.