just wanted to strat the spiritual ball rolling once again on this topic, seemd to be generating lots of "heat!" Quote: Originally Posted by JesusFan Question that I had after reading all of this from DHK.... God desires a relationship with His children, but didn't Jesus say the Devil as his own kids to? Yes, but even the devil doesn't force all the unsaved. They have a free will. The only ones that don't are those that have deliberately become demon-possessed. They have given their wills and minds over to Satan. But that is not your average person is it? But IF they are not born again/saved by the Grace of God, Jesus saying to us they already ARE children of the Devil! As Bob Dylan said, 'you gotta serve somebody, might be the Devil or the Lord, gotta serve somebody!" Quote: If God did reconcile all of us thru the Cross, why does satan have his kids still? What does the Bible say about reconciliation? To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. (2 Corinthians 5:19) --Did he or didn't he reconcile the world unto himself? What does the verse teach? The answer is given more clearly in verse 21: God reconciled back to Him ALL that are saved by the Cross, not ALL peoples... For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. (2 Corinthians 5:21) --On the cross Christ was made sin. He took the penalty of the sin of the world upon himself. Why? That we, who believe, could be made the righteousness of God in him. It is the only way. But God is not finished with us yet. Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. (2 Corinthians 5:20) --God wants us to be reconciled to him, and he has given us a ministry of reconciliation as ambassadors of Christ to take the gospel to every creature that others also may be reconciled to him. Reconciliation can only happen when one believes on the finished work of Christ. Not all believe. Thus there remains many who are not children of God. Quote: Also Why all of this anger towards even the hint of the idea that God just MIGHT have elected out of a reprobate race His own people for His glory? Almost like mad at God for daring to suggest such a thing! JesusFan, Do you agree with this quote: Quote: I think the problem lies in the fine Biblical points of God's Sovereignty, such as, does He control the outcome of all things? I believe the Scriptures say He does clearly. I don't believe for one second that He does not control all things, even the thoughts and decisons of man, but that since He does, he grants to those whom He wills to grant salvation. Is every thought that you have put there by God. Is God that controlling? My response was such because I find that this view of God, in the light of Scripture, a heretical view of God. It makes God a bully, so powerful that every creature is simply a robot with no power even to think one thought. This is totally unbiblical; has no basis in Scripture whatsoever. Thus my reaction to the post, which I tried to refute with ample Scripture. God knows all of my thoughts, my desires, knows all things that can possible be known.... Question back to you... I DONT believe God directly determines everything, as I hold to Him having a dterminitive/permissive Wills thing going on.. BUT IF he did control all things directly, whom am I to tell Him"not fair/stop doing it!" __________________ DHK I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.