Faith received part deux

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by convicted1, Jun 22, 2011.

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  1. convicted1

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    I do not want you to think I am singling you out, Bro. DHK, but before I could respond to you, that thread get closed. I want to carry this on a little further, okay?

    You said: Your post emphasizes and strengthens my position.

    I am not so sure on that Brother....lets see.

    You also stated this: This is eisigesis. You have read into the passage that which is not there. What did Jesus say:
    YOUR FAITH has made you whole. Jesus did not give her faith. Your preconceived theology made you think that. You had no other choice but to read that into the passage. But it is not there.


    Faith is a gift of God. Any gift, when it is given, becomes yours, and therefore Jesus rightly said "your faith has made you whole". She could not see this on her own. It's like reading your bible. You can read it until you turn blue in the face, and if God doesn't enlighten you mind to understand, you can not get the meaning of His written Word. It takes God to remove the veil from your eyes to see, to unplug your ears to hear, etc. God is the author and finisher of our faith.

    You also stated this: Again it says my unbelief The belief or unbelief was his. It was not Jesus' It was his faith. In verse 23 Jesus said, "all things are possible to him that believeth, not to him that believeth with God's faith." You are reading into the passage things that are not there. The faith was the father of the son. The context makes it obvious.

    We all are in a state of unbelief until God shows us what we were, sinners. I did not realize the sad state I was in until God came and showed me I was a sinner in need of a Saviour. This unbelief is ours, but the belief(faith in action) comes from God.

    I posted this: 6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;

    7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

    8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.


    Faith gets stronger through prayer, meditation, studying, seeking His face, etc. When God showed me that I was a sinner, He gave me the faith to believe what He was saying was true, but I didn't want to be saved at that time. That faith was still there, because He called me for years, but in my rebellion, I didn't want to serve Him. When I started listening to what He was saying, and then began calling out, that faith was there, and helped me to understand what He was saying in His Word was true.[/B]

    What I was trying to say here was that when God comes to us and shows us lost and doomed for hell, He gives us faith, which is a gift from Him. Now, if we push this gift aside, it will do us no good. Now, when we put this faith into action, then these other additions come along. As faith grows, we grow, as well.

    I posted this: Now, here is what happens when people "squander" their gift of faith:

    9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

    10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

    So, according to what His Word has shown me, faith comes from God....or at least that is how I see it.


    No, I do not believe one can lose their salvation. But when you don't put your faith into action, these other things don't come about either. Faith is the "starting point" that leads us to the throne of Grace.

    Faith isn't something "conjured up" inside of man. As Brother P4T stated in a post in another thread, "Love, Grace, Mercy, Justification, Sanctification, Salvation, and Repentance" are gifts of God. Now, I kinda think that repentance is something that we must do.....but that's a whole other topic altogether.

    I am sure we will remain at odds over this, but let's do this in love, okay? May God bless you with a wonderful week!!

    i am I AM's!!

    Willis
     
    #1 convicted1, Jun 22, 2011
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  2. DHK

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    A preconceived Calvinistic point, that has yet to be demonstrated through the Scripture. Why should I believe you if you can't show me through the Scripture that faith is a gift given to the unregenerate? It isn't and there is not one verse in the Bible that says it is. You just simply stated it is without any hesitation of giving Scriptural support. Therefore my point stands. Your faith has made you whole. It was his faith, not the faith of God, that made him whole.
    You have not demonstrated through Scripture. But remember:
    1. We are talking in the context of the unregenerate.
    2. The premise is that God does not give the unregenerate the gift of faith or spiritual gifts. That is against his nature to do so. Go back into 1Cor.12. Did he also give them the gifts of prophecy, revelatory knowledge, tongues, miracles, healing, etc. Does God give spiritual gifts to the unsaved? If you read that passage you will find "faith" listed as a spiritual and supernatural gift. It is absurd to think that God would give a supernatural and spiritual gift to the unregenerate. It is also listed among one of the fruits of the Spirit. Does God give the fruit of the Spirit to the unregenerate? This position is absurd.

    The passage referred to above is 1Cor.2:12-14. It is speaking of believers, and is speaking of "illumination." God illuminates the mind of the believer and gives him understanding of the sense of Scripture by the Holy Spirit. That is all that that passage is teaching. Don't read more into it than what it teaches.
    The believer's faith. That faith that he has once he is saved. It is not speaking of the unregenerate.
    The word of God shows us that we are sinners.
    The law shows us we are sinners.
    Paul makes that very clear. Without the law there is no sin. The law was a schoolmaster. It showed us that we are sinners.
    The Bible says: "For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.
    I did not need to be convinced by any supernatural act of God to realize that I was a sinner. I already knew that. Knowing that, from the Bible I was shown my need for a Savior. Faith comes from hearing and hearing from the Word of God.
    How did God come and show you?
    It sounds like you had a Charismatic experience.
    God does not give faith. Faith comes from the Word of God, as the Bible says it does. God does not give faith to the unregenerate; only Charismatics say that when they start to speak in tongues, and say that that is their salvation experience.
    Why are you connecting this to salvation. It has nothing to do with salvation. These are "things that abound in the believers" not the unsaved will make the believer more fruitful. They have nothing to do with salvation.
    No he didn't. Faith comes from the word of God.
    You rejected Christ out of your own free will. No one forced you. You demonstrated your own choice, your own free will.
    It always is there, because it isn't given by God. It comes from the Word of God. You heard the Word of God, and you knew what the message of the gospel was by hearing it. Now it was a matter of receiving it, instead of rejecting it as you previously did. (See John 1:12)
    No it isn't. That is your Calvinism speaking for you; not the Word of God. You knew the message. You had heard the Word. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. Do you deny that that is what the Bible says? God does not give faith to the unregenerate. The Holy Spirit may have been working in your heart convicting you of your sin. But it was your faith that you needed to put in the message of the Bible in order to be saved. "Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved." NOT, believe with God's faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.
    It never was a gift in the first place. If you push the Holy Spirit aside you are asking for trouble. If you push Christ aside you are asking for trouble. But you can't push aside a gift you don't have. God does not give spiritual gifts to the unsaved.
    That is only applicable to the saved in Christ, not the unsaved.
    Those verses are written to believers. So believers squander their "faith"?
    It sounds like you believe they will lose their salvation. You really haven't clarified yourself in what those verses mean. But they are not talking about salvation so they are irrelevant.
    Faith is not a work. Neither is it a gift given to unbelievers. This is where you err. To compare it with works is then apples and oranges. Love is a work. It is something you do. I love my wife, and I can demonstrate it, show it. It is a work. One can show mercy, such as the good Samaritan. That is a work. Faith is not a work. The comparison is not right. It doesn't fit.
     
  3. preacher4truth

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    Good post and points. Now, one has to understand what it means when Jesus says "your faith has made you whole." Wonder what whole means? It is clear we are saved by grace. Faith justifies. God's grace? It saves. It's all about knowing what it means (Scripture) over knowing what it says. I guarantee no one in heaven thinks "their faith" saved them. They all know Gods Grace saved them. Definitely, God grants faith to unbelievers. It is Scriptural.
     
    #3 preacher4truth, Jun 22, 2011
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  4. quantumfaith

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    It is clear that God's grace has granted salvation, and our expression of faith in Christ actualizes this salvation. Everyone in heaven should know it is God's grace and our faith and trust. Just wanted to add....Thats how I see it.
     
    #4 quantumfaith, Jun 22, 2011
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  5. preacher4truth

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    I believe our faith actually is an expression that we come to realize we are saved, because Grace already handled the salvation end, because it, Grace, was all Him, not us.

    "Do you believe?" "Yes." I don't believe that "yes," or moment saved them, I think it qualifies it, that said person acknowledges they already have been saved, instantaneously. In other words, I believe we are saved by Grace. Good points too bro.
     
  6. quantumfaith

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    We can get along, despite our differences. :) In the immortal words of Rodney King....Cant we all get along?. :)
     
  7. JesusFan

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    We had better learn how to while all of us are down here...
    We will be spending Eternity together!
     
  8. convicted1

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    Brother, FTR, I am not a Calvinist, and I am very comfortable in the FW camp, and with faith being a gift of God.

    Here are two scriptures that I want to show you:

    Job 32:8 But there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding.

    9 Great men are not always wise: neither do the aged understand judgment.


    Now, the Hebrew word for "inspiration" is this word:

    nĕshamah נְשָׁמָה H5397

    Thayer's definition:
    1) breath, spirit

    a) breath (of God)

    b) breath (of man)

    c) every breathing thing

    d) spirit (of man)

    Now, the Hebrew word for "man" is this: 'enowsh אֱנוֹשׁ H582

    Thayer's definition:
    1) man, mortal man, person, mankind

    a) of an individual

    b) men (collective)

    c) man, mankind


    Now, the Hebrew word for "spirit" in reference to man: ruwach רוּחַ H7307

    Thayer's definition:
    1) wind, breath, mind, spirit

    a) breath

    b) wind

    d) spirit (of the living, breathing being in man and animals)

    1) as gift, preserved by God, God's spirit, departing at death, disembodied being

    I did not paste all of the definitions, considering it is LOOOOOOONG!!

    So you can see, that it is God's Inspiration(Hoy Spirit) that gives mankind understanding(by breathing on them). We can know nothing of and/or about God, without Him revealling Himself to us. It is throught the knowledge He gives us, that shows us as sinners. It is His gift of faith, that allows us to even approach Him the first time we do.

    Yes, God does work through the Gospel, but unless God opens our eyes to see, and unplugs our ears to hear, the gospel message will not save us. We can not save ourselves(I am not saying you believe this, either), but God gives us faith, and then we put that faith to work, and by grace, we are saved through faith.



    Rom. 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.


    Now, lets look at the word "dealt": merizō μερίζω G3307

    Thayer's definition:
    1) to divide

    a) to separate into parts, cut into pieces

    1) to divide into parties, i.e. be split into factions

    b) to distribute

    1) a thing among people

    2) bestow, impart

    Greek word for "measure": metron μέτρον

    Thayer's definition:
    1) measure, an instrument for measuring

    a) a vessel for receiving and determining the quantity of things, whether dry or liquid

    b) a graduated staff for measuring, a measuring rod

    c) proverbially, the rule or standard of judgment

    2) determined extent, portion measured off, measure or limit

    a) the required measure, the due, fit, measure


    So, in essence, God has "distributed" to every man the "required measure" of faith.



    Now, you keep saying{repeatedly} that God doesn't give faith to the unregenerate person. Please explain what YOU mean by this term. I am one that holds to unregenerated being unsaved, and regenerate being saved. Now, I am not saying one can be regenerated, and then born again, but one is regenerated because they do believe. I do not see this like my DoG Brethern do. One does not get the "new birth"(which is what the greek word used for regenerated means), and not be saved. We get the "new birth" because we are saved. I think we may be in agreement here.

    Faith comes before salvation is what I am trying to get across to you, Bro. DHK. A sinner is an "unregenerated person", but yet, they must have faith to be born again. So if they don't have faith to beleive in God, they can not be saved. Man does not "conjure up" faith to believe in God. Man, of his own volition, does not have the ability to seek after God. God must first draw this person to Himself. In this drawing, God gives him the faith to believe.

    I am sure we will remain at odds over this, but I have enjoyed our civil discussion. May God bless you and your whole family!!

    i am I AM's!!

    Willis
     
  9. JesusFan

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    Think that our "Arminian" bethren fail to recognize just HOW complete and total was our "spiritual" bankruptcy granted to us due to Adam and His fall...

    Agree that the Gospel has power within it, means to save IF one responds in Faith towards jesus, BUT the basic problem is that NONE of us have that means in our "natural" selves unless/until God enables us!

    I do not hold that one is regenerated than places faith in Christ, as that would mean you are saved before getting saved!
    Do believe that either God does a "partial" awaking/quickening to us, enough to enable us to make faith decision to receive Christ, or else that regeneration/Faith like 2 sides of the same coin, much as repentance/faith are!
     
    #9 JesusFan, Jun 23, 2011
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  10. convicted1

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    I see this quite a bit differently then some on here. I believe we are born "not guilty", meaning that in infancy, we are still under God's grace, and if any die in infancy, they go to heaven. Now, when God imputes sin unto someone, they then die "spiritually", and are in a "totally depraved" state. I believe in "total depravity", but believe it differently than my DoG Brethern, and even my "A" Brethern....but that's a different thread altogether.


    Romans 1:16 states that the gospel is God's power unto salvation, to him who believeth, to the Jew first, and also the Greek. If you put your faith in God(which is His gift to us), then we can be saved. One doesn't wake up one day and all of a sudden say, "I believe that there is a God", and do so on their own merit. When I was around five, or so, I asked mom who was Jesus. She told me that He was one who died for sinners(paraphrasing here), and I didn't understand. I thought at that time, that was an odd thing to do. Over time, God began revealling Himself to me, and as I got older, I began to understand more, all thorugh Him. So man, in and of himself, does not have the "faculties" to put faith in Him. The only faith we "have", we put in ourselves, or in others.


    Well, quickening means to be "made alive," so I would not use that word. This is a tough one to answer, Brother. Though we are "spiritually dead", this means a separation from God because of sin. This does not mean that we can not respond to His calling us. When sin is imputed unto us, there is a great gulf placed between us and Him. Grace is the Bridge that gets us to Him. Jesus is the Grace that I am talking about. When Jesus died on the cross, moreover, when He ascended back to the Father, He built that Bridge that spans from us to Him. He is the Bridge on which we walk, and this Bridge leads through the portal of heaven. I think this is what Jesus meant when He stated He was the way, the truth, and the life. Without His sacrifice, that Bridge would not have been built for mankind to travel on to get to God.

    Now, I agree that we are not regenerated, and then saved. That's like saying salvation comes in "segments". But, when we are saved, we are saved, sanctified, justified, cleansed, all at the same time. We get eternal life at that very moment.

    i am I AM's!!

    Willis
     
  11. DHK

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    Job was one of God's children. He certainly wasn't an example of one who was unregenerate. How can you use him as an example? God does not give the gift of faith to the unregenerate. I stand by my statement.
    Having said that, I also stand by my statement, coupled with what you have posted, where faith comes from.

    Faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the Word of God. Faith is not blind. We need to hear God's Word, the saving message of the gospel in order to be saved. That is what saves--the gospel.

    For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. (Romans 1:16)
    --Note it is the gospel that saves. The one that believes the gospel will be saved, not with God's faith, but with his own faith.
    Again, the context of Romans 12:1-3 is God giving spiritual gifts to the believers of the church.
    I stand by my statement that God does not give the gift of faith to the unregenerate. Your statement has nothing to do with mine. You are again taking Scripture out of context if you are using this to prove my point wrong.
    I believe regeneration and salvation take place at the same time. Thus I often say that God does not give give faith to the unregenerate or the unsaved for the sake of my Calvinistic friends who believe one precedes the other.
    Where in the Bible is this teaching that God must give the unsaved man the faith to believe. You are using deductive reasoning from the Bible to come to a false conclusion. If one statement in your syllogism is false then the whole is false. Let's go through your above paragraph.

    1. Faith comes before salvation. True.
    2. A sinner is an "unregenerated person." True.
    3. They must have faith to be born again. True.
    4. If they don't have faith to believe in God they cannot be saved. True.
    5. Man of his own volition does not have the ability to seek after God. False.
    6. God must first draw this person to Himself. half true.
    7. In this drawing God gives him faith. False.

    Your false statement and partly true but partly false statement makes statement 7, the conclusion false.

    What is faith? Faith is the God-given ability that every man has to believe.
    I believe my parents will provide me shelter and food. Every child does.
    I believe that when I put my key in the ignition my car will start.
    I believe that what my wife says she will do, that she will do it.
    --The latter is exactly what Abraham said about God as an example of faith in Romans 4:20,21. Faith is confidence in the word of another. We exercise it every day. Muslims exercise faith in the Koran and in Allah. It is blind faith for they have no basis for their faith. We have a basis for our faith--the resurrection of Jesus Christ; the hearing of the Word of God; the source of our faith.

    Your partly true statement: God draws us. When does God draw us. As we listen to the gospel the Holy Spirit convicts us of our sin. That is the drawing of the Holy Spirit--the conviction that he brings upon us. It is not like the Father leading an unsaved person with a rope tied around his neck to the place of salvation. He doesn't work that way. He works through the Holy Spirit.

    What He doesn't do is give the unsaved THE GIFT of faith. He never gives any unsaved person spiritual gifts. This is an absurd position, IMO, that God would give an unsaved person a spiritual gift.
    Likewise.
     
  12. JesusFan

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    ALL those that the fFther draw/bring by the convicting work/ministry of the Holy Spirit to Jesus Christ WILL be saved...

    it IS hard to really be able to describe the entire salvation process, as God true does not regenerate BEFORE faith, but appears to be same time, flip side of the full process...

    DO see that unless the Lord though allows us, enables us to be able to exercise saving faith in Christ, we are unable to come to Chrsit in ourselves...

    Not reenerating us beforehand, but he HAS to some some kind of prior work to "prepare" us to be able to place faith in Jesus Christ!
     
  13. DHK

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    That is the work of the Holy Spirit, and the work of the message of the gospel. Both of those works are clearly defined in the Word of God, whereas the deductive reasoning of the Calvinist is not.
     
  14. preacher4truth

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    WELL said brother! Preach it! :thumbsup: Also, we see this prevenient Grace (that saves) in the life of Abram, Genesis 12! He is the "father" of us all, as in Romans and a perfect example of what you say.
     
  15. JesusFan

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    Still say BIGGEST problem Arminian has is that he/she simply refuses to ackowledge JUST how badly the fall affected us

    We are not marred/scarred by it, we were all made "dead: by it!

    THAT is why the Lord has to directly elect and save us, as on our own we can hear the Gospel message, but cannot repond by faith unless.until God enables us to by direct act of His grace!
     
  16. preacher4truth

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    That's why "saved" means "to rescue", not "to help out some or a little." When God rescues the dead to give them life, the dead cannot reach out a hand, the entire bringing to life must happen, in other words, we must be enabled.

    That is what God did, giving us at the moment of being transformed the graces of the gifts of faith, and repentance, santification and the rest.

    I think the biggest problem in Arminianism centers around a Sovereignty that falls a little short of the true Biblical view.
     
  17. DHK

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    That's odd, I am still breathing; can still feel my heart beat.

    What do you mean by "dead"? Define the term as you believe the Bible uses it.
     
  18. JesusFan

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    Just the same way adam and Eve were after they had sinned against God...

    Were alive physically/mentally, could see and hear and talk to God BUT
    had lost their relationship to Him Spititually, died in their "spirit"

    So we today can be physical, "flesh" beings, with minds/souls, but spirit are dead to God, when we get saved, they come alive again to God, and he gives us the Holy Spirit to allow us that "spiritual" relatioship once again...
     
  19. DHK

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    OK, Let's explore that. Adam sinned, and so he was "dead." Yet at the same time he was able to communicate with God. "Adam, where art thou?"

    And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself. (Genesis 3:10)

    And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat? (Genesis 3:11)

    And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat. (Genesis 3:12)

    And the conversation continues. Adam and God could have a conversation even though Adam was "dead." Please explain how that can be, and how it fits into your definition of "dead."
     
  20. webdog

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    Willis, if you are correct in your understanding of the "faith gift", why does Jesus scold the faith of His disciples and show surprise when He encountered great faith...if these were His gifts given?
     
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