Faith Received

So you are not really than an Arminianist , as classically, they believe same way as cals do , that man as a result of the fall and born into sin, are both depraived and unable to come to Christ apart from God doing a work of grace on our behalf? that even IF we have the Gospel preached to us, without God enabling us, cannot respond in faith?

Bot cals/Arms affirm that as being true!

 

I certainly answered you, I believe all men have the God given ability to believe God's word if they choose to do so.

But I also explained that no man can believe what he does not know.

I believe the Holy Spirit works through God's word in three ways, #1 it reveals the gospel of Jesus Christ to us, without this revelation no man could know or understand the gospel. #2 I believe God's word convicts us. This is a deeply personal conviction that makes us understand we have sinned against a holy God, but it also convicts us in that we feel the love Christ had for us in dying for our sins. These are words that pierce the hardest heart of stone. #3 When we are convicted of the Spirit and made wise to trust Christ, when we do trust or believe the Holy Spirit regenerates us, makes us spiritually alive.

But the faith we place in Christ is our own. We have to place OUR faith in Christ, God does not believe for us. How would God giving his own faith to himself be meaningful, how would it glorify him? No, when we freely place our faith in Christ, this glorifies God. Our faith has no power, but when we trust Christ he regenerates us, he alone has the power and ability to give life.

You would have to ignore dozens of verses that say man's faith is his own to accept your view.

 

Not exactly. I explained this in the other thread, so for the sake of repetition I'll just refer you there...

 

JF, not to be offensive, but why do answers to your questions go in one ear and out the other? People repeatedly answer you, yet you never seem to GET IT.

I can't speak for others, but I have answered before that the word "enable" does not mean the same thing as "caused". God gives us the information we need to believe, you cannot believe what you do not know. This is why Paul asked how a man can believe in him of whom they have not heard.

What does this question imply? Does it imply men must be supernaturally regenerated to believe?

Or does it imply that man needs to hear of Christ to believe?

And then Paul directly says faith comes by hearing the word of God. Any magic here?

I could promise to send you a Super Bowl ticket if you will PM your address to me. Now you have two options completely within your own control. You can judge me honest and believe my offer, or you can judge me a liar and refuse to believe my offer. Believeing is completely within your own ability and control.

The offer I made enabled you to believe, you cannot believe what you have never heard. But my promise does not cause you to believe, whether you believe or not is completely in your own power.

Please don't keep asking the same questions over and over again, you have been answered many times. Quite frankly, I believe you perfectly understand the answers you have been given.

 

problem is that unless i am reading the views of both cals/arms wrongly...

the classic arm position is that man is born depraived and cannot come to God and respond by faith UNLESS God so graces them/enables them...

IF God sat on the sidelines and JUST had Gospel preached to them...

Both Cals/Arms say that they will not place saving faith in Christ by own efforts...

Arms say God grants grace sufficient to ALL to hear and believe in jesus IF they freely chose such

cals say God grants specific grace, and they will come to faith in Christ!

So aperson who holds that we can respond by faith JUST because of hearing the Gospel God did nothing else in them, would not be either cal/Arm?

 

I never claimed to speak for "every AG church" or even "every Arminian." I simply showed that Arminius himself didn't believe what you indicated, nor do any Arminian scholars I'm aware of, which contradicts your OP and subsequent replies regarding what you claim "most Arminians" believe. I've yet to see one Christian scholar (AG, Baptist, Arminian or otherwise) who denies that faith comes from God. They may deny that faith is effectually applied through a regenerative work of the HS, but I can't imagine anyone arguing that faith doesn't come through hearing God's words.

I understand your intent now. I just didn't want others to be mislead regarding what I and others actually believe about the origin of our faith. I hope that helps.

 

I think this statement reveals the source of your confusion.

You seem to put the Gospel on a very low standing.

Who produced the Gospel? Who preserved the Gospel? Who inspired the Gospel? Who carries the Gospel today? Who compels men today to continue to preach the Gospel?

The Gospel IS the power of God unto salvation. The gospel is God's words given to man...the very words of God.

It would be IMPOSSIBLE for God to "sit on the sidelines" while the Gospel is being preached, because God is actively apart of every thing dealing with the inspiration, proclamation, dispersion and preservation of the Gospel. To claim otherwise is to make the Gospel a work of man, rather than a divine, powerful work of God Himself!

 

You say that, but I find it interesting that not one person as chosen the replies in your poll reflecting that (answers 2,3,4 and 6).

Could it be that you may have misunderstood what some have argued regarding the origin and nature of faith? Maybe they were saying that while God grants man the ability to believe some may choose to "trade the truth of God for a lie" and grown calloused and defiled in their rebellion?

 

it is the Holy Spirit and HIM alone who can convict/grant repentance/ turn one to God etc...

Again, the message of the Gospel does transform lives, in that Jesus is spoken of, and the person who is saved places faith in him, but apart from the active work of the Spirit to enable/allow one to respond to Gospel...

it has power indeed, but dead men cannot receive it, you can preach it ina cementary and though it has power, not one will get saved!

Thin we BOTH affirm the power and what the Gospel is BUT you seem to have a higher opinion of just how we are standing before God than I do, as Man in my view cannot place faith in Christt unless God provides the work of grace apart from the Gospel message, and THEN the Gospel can do its appointed work!

 

So again...
To those who hold to man being able to respond in kind to message by hearing it ALONE
(Not you, but those replying to you!)
Why work does the Holy Spirit do again? Doesn't He quicken/convict/grant repentance/regenerate etc by His soverign will, as he has to enable one to even be able to respond in faith ?

 

We agree on this point. But HOW does God do this? What means has he appointed to bring conviction, grant repentance and turn one to God for salvation?

I'll let Paul answer, "The gospel is the power of God unto salvation."

This implies, without cause or biblical support, that the Gospel is not an "active work of the Spirit" by which one may be enabled/allowed to respond.

Men are enslaved, but doesn't the Bible teach that the truth may set you free?

Men are dead, but doesn't the bible teach that the WORD of God may bring life?

Men are enemies, but doesn't the bible teach that the gospel is God's appeal to the world to be reconciled to Him?

Without God we are powerless to be saved, but doesn't the bible teach that the Gospel is the power of God unto salvation?

Do you really affirm the power of the gospel when in your view it has NO POWER WHATSOEVER for most of humanity? In my view it has power to accomplish the purpose for which it was sent (to bring conviction, to grant repentance, to appeal for whosoever to be reconciled to God), but in your view it only has power to inform those who have already been affected by another more powerful calling. So, the power in your view is not really the gospel, it is the addition "effectual calling" of God which come prior to the Gospel.

 

This of course is utter nonsense and has no Scriptural support.
God is sovereign, but you wrongly define sovereignty. Never does the Bible describe God as a bully, a mind-controlling hypnotist, a maker of robots (which in your theology we all are). You have a sad, sad view of God.

God is love. He desires to have a relationship with his children. He desires his children to fellowship with Him. Read 1John chapter one and Ephesians chapter one. He knows our thoughts, but he didn't program us. Our thoughts are of our own choosing. He simply knows ahead of time what thoughts we will choose to make.

Your statements make no sense in the light of such commands as:

Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things. (Philippians 4:8)
--Why the command to "think on these things" if God already put the thoughts in my mind to think on. I shouldn't have to worry about it. Why hasn't God put all good thoughts in my mind. According to your theology every evil thought I may have it is God's fault and therefore God that is sinning. You are attributing sin to God.

Let this mind be in you which is also in Christ Jesus.
--not necessary if God already controls my thoughts.

Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ; (2 Corinthians 10:5)
--Not necessary if God controls my thoughts.
--What is right? You or the Bible?
I go with the Bible.