Faith vs Logic II

--------------------------------------------------
Askjo, if I didn't know better I would think she was referring to the KJVO theory when she mentions "their OWN LOGIC AND HUMAN REASONING outside of and contrary........the scriptures."
--------------------------------------------------

Many of you are amazing. You continually accuse me and others of turning the threads into KJVO vs. non-KJVO, when in TRUTH AND REALITY, it is those who accuse us falsely of this (in most cases) who are the one's actually guilty of doing this.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

GeneMBridges, Good post. I enjoyed it. God is a logical part of this universe and there is nothing wrong with providing the proof.

Doesn't the Bible say that we can see Him in His creation? If so, He is a logical beginning to all we see. There is where our FAITH lies.

When God sent Jesus Christ to Earth, His miracles would only be logical if He was God. Therefore, we have witnesses (the scriptures) that miracles did occur and therefore we base our faith on that logic. We base our faith on the logic that only God could die on a cross and rise again on the third day, or raise a person who already smells of rot in the grave. It is logical that these witnessed miracles are performed by God. That is what we have FAITH in.

People will question whether or not God is real. We need to provide them with logical answers or they will never develop faith.

 

I admit it, Michelle, but your statement implies that people are doing things outside of the scripture. Considering all of your other posts, it is my opinion that you are talking about us who do not believe your position.

See, this is why you have to take things in context. If I were to pull out your single statement, I get the wrong conclusion, but, understanding all of your other posts, I understand what you are actually trying to say.

 

--------------------------------------------------
People will question whether or not God is real. We need to provide them with logical answers or they will never develop faith.
--------------------------------------------------


Where in God's word does he tell us to use "logic" or logical answers to people who question God outside of scripture? How does God say we are to provide answers to unbelievers for our FAITH? Does He tell us to use our own logic or words? Or does he tell us to preach the word (God's logic and wisdom)?

Here is what the scriptures say:

1 Corinthians 2

1. And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.
2. For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.
3. And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.
4. And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the spirit and of power:
5. That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
6. Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
7. But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
8. Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9. But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
10. But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11. For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15. But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
16. For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.


and.....


Romans 10


13. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15. And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16. But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17. So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
18. But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.


Isaiah 1

10. Hear the word of the Lord, ye rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law of our God, ye people of Gomorrah.
11. To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the Lord: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.
12. When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts?
13. Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting.
14. Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them.
15. And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood.
16. Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil;
17. Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.
18. Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
19. If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:
20. But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it.
21. How is the faithful city become an harlot! it was full of judgment; righteousness lodged in it; but now murderers.
22. Thy silver is become dross, thy wine mixed with water:
23. Thy princes are rebellious, and companions of thieves: every one loveth gifts, and followeth after rewards: they judge not the fatherless, neither doth the cause of the widow come unto them.
24. Therefore saith the Lord, the Lord of hosts, the mighty One of Israel, Ah, I will ease me of mine adversaries, and avenge me of mine enemies:
25. And I will turn my hand upon thee, and purely purge away thy dross, and take away all thy tin:
26. And I will restore thy judges as at the first, and thy counsellers as at the beginning: afterward thou shalt be called, The city of righteousness, the faithful city.
27. Zion shall be redeemed with judgment, and her converts with righteousness.
28. And the destruction of the transgressors and of the sinners shall be together, and they that forsake the Lord shall be consumed.
29. For they shall be ashamed of the oaks which ye have desired, and ye shall be confounded for the gardens that ye have chosen.
30. For ye shall be as an oak whose leaf fadeth, and as a garden that hath no water.
31. And the strong shall be as tow, and the maker of it as a spark, and they shall both burn together, and none shall quench them.


Just WHAT exactly is it that they are to "reason" huh? Does God tell them to look to the creation? Does God tell them to use their own logic? How is it that one KNOWS THEY HAVE sinned against God? Does one come to realize this one thier own? Or is it by the Holy Spirit of God that convicts the persons heart and through FAITH?

Hebrews 4

12. For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
13. Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.

Hebrews 11

1. Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
2. For by it the elders obtained a good report.
3. Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
4. By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.
5. By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
6. But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
7. By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.
8. By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
9. By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
10. For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
11. Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.
12. Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.
13. These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.


Ephesians 2

1. And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2. Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3. Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5. Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
6. And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7. That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9. Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
11. Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12. That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13. But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15. Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16. And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17. And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18. For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19. Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20. And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21. In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22. In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

I refer you to my above post, Michelle. That's all fine and dandy, but what if that person doesn't believe in the Bible? What then? Can you show that the Bible is God's Word without referring to the Bible? Can you show that God exists without referring to the Bible?

NOBODY here disputes that God requires faith in His word. We dispute your absurd claim that faith and logic are exclusionary concepts.

God uses logic. The very passages you cite above are, in fact, logical presentations. Faith, is logical, not illogical. If that is so, then how can it be that logic and faith are mutually exclusive?

That belief is the chief cornerstone of liberalism and relativism, michelle. You are not a liberal, and you are not a relativist, but your affirmation regarding faith and logic/reason is exactly the same.

 

--------------------------------------------------
I admit it, Michelle, but your statement implies that people are doing things outside of the scripture. Considering all of your other posts, it is my opinion that you are talking about us who do not believe your position.

--------------------------------------------------


I was making a FACTUAL statement concerning FAITH VS. LOGIC. I am glad you indicated it was YOUR OPININ, as you have FALSELY ASSUMED I was "implying" when indeed I was doing no such thing.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

--------------------------------------------------
I refer you to my above post, Michelle. That's all fine and dandy, but what if that person doesn't believe in the Bible? What then? Can you show that the Bible is God's Word without referring to the Bible? Can you show that God exists without referring to the Bible?

--------------------------------------------------


And your above post provides not one verse of scripture to support your belief. I believe God and his truth in the SCRIPTURES, and HIS WORDS over yours, for God and His words are MY FINAL AUTHORITY. Not any man's words or opinions.


Acts 17

11. These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
12. Therefore many of them believed; also of honourable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few.
13. But when the Jews of Thessalonica had knowledge that the word of God was preached of Paul at Berea, they came thither also, and stirred up the people.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

Your points are succint and valid Gene. God is logical - using logic does not require the Bible - it is part of God's natural revelation. Romans 1 tells us that the world is without excuse because of Creation.

 

Michelle, you have little or no understanding about the law of evidence, do you? Evidence requires more than one witness, and those witnesses cannot be the same person/object you are trying to defend. One testifying of ones self is not considered credible. Logic and faith work hand in hand. If you truly have faith in the KJV, as most here do, then you will and should have outside sources to back up your claims of one version onlyism. No one is disputing your faith. They are disputing your method of presentation and defense of said faith. There is not one version from the beginning of time that promotes, states or in any way, shape or form defends itself or any other version/translation as the ONLY Word of God. It is not logical to assume so, and it shows a lack of faith to honestly approach the subject and study outside sources and be ready to give an honest, historical, factual answer. You accuse people of falsely representing you. You falsely accuse others. You have consistantly refused to present outside sources, historical, factual and otherwise to defend your position, yet you accuse others who understand the truth and principles of defending of using "human reasoning and logic" and "having a lack of faith". This is not so. They understand the importance of historical, documented, accurate proof in defense of ones position. Do you?

 

Michelle,

Where in Scripture does it say that faith and logic are exclusionary?

Can you show a place in Scripture where God does not use logic?

No Scripture? I Corinthians 15: Logical presentation of the truth of the Resurrection.

Romans 1...Show that believing in God is reasonable and logical, but nevertheless man chooses to reject the truth.

I and others have given PLENTY of Scriptures.

Answer my question, Michelle! How do you show an atheist that does not believe the Bible is God's Word, much less that God exists that it is reasonable that God exists and that the Bible is God's Word.

The use of faith is PREDICATED on the logic to support the reality of the things believed. I refer you to 1 Corinthians 15. The entire chapter is there to demonstrate that if the resurrection is not bodily and is not a real historical event we are doomed.

As a real historical event it must be verifiable. If the evidence is in the Bible, then it also follows that the text is historically reliable.

You insult the incarnation. Jesus was fully God and fully man. The Bible is fully the Word of God and fully the Word of Man, truth without any mixture of error, the same way that Jesus was both God and yet also men without sin in Him. It is not the product of dictation. It is the product of inspiration. Godly faith is fully spiritual and fully reasonable. Faith and reason are not mutually exclusive. The relationship between faith and reason is a picture of the Incarnation itself.

If you believe they are, then show how they are.

The Bereans did not rely on magic or some kind of light from heaven to illuminate their minds. They relied on the Holy Spirit.

To use the mind, the Holy Spirit doesn't magically act. He illuminates our ability to understand. Understanding requires thought and thought requires the ability to use sound reason, by definition logic. Faith is logical, and sound logic will always lead to sound faith as long as the premises and evidences are themselves sound.

You are afraid. You'll never admit it, but I honestly have come to the conclusion that you simply are afraid, because you equate "reason" with "atheism" and other ideas. You allow your perceptions of the enemy to shape your views. Find me ONE evangelical, orthodox exegete or theologian, michelle, that will say that faith and logic are mutually exclusive.

 

--------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Michelle quoted:

The problem concerning this issue is when many use their OWN LOGIC AND HUMAN REASONING outside of and contrary to the logic and reason of the truth in the scriptures. Our logic and wisdom comes from God through our FAITH IN HIS WORDS OF TRUTH. Anything outside of this is of our own logic and wisdom.
--------------------------------------------------

and.....


--------------------------------------------------
Michelle quoted:

Where in God's word does he tell us to use "logic" or logical answers to people who question God outside of scripture? How does God say we are to provide answers to unbelievers for our FAITH? Does He tell us to use our own logic or words? Or does he tell us to preach the word (God's logic and wisdom)?
--------------------------------------------------


--------------------------------------------------
Gene quoted:

That belief is the chief cornerstone of liberalism and relativism, michelle. You are not a liberal, and you are not a relativist, but your affirmation regarding faith and logic/reason is exactly the same.
--------------------------------------------------


It is?


The SCRIPTURES say differently, to which I gave abundantly, and could provide even more.


Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

I have faith that multiple versions are "the word of God". Why are you trying to tear down my faith?

 

Oh. Then I have FAITH. Is that better?

 

Exegete the Scriptures for us, michelle, show us how they support your claims. All you've done is cut and paste them. You have not discussed them. You've got an audience here full of ordained, licensed, and lay preachers here. We all affirm the Bible is God's Word. We all believe in justification by grace through faith.

NOBODY here says faith is unncessary. We dispute the lack of complementariness.

Show us where the Scriptures say that faith and reason are exclusionary and SHOULD BE exclusionary and the basic exposition to support your views. Otherwise, you're just cutting and pasting. You are classically showing an example of a person that knows what the Bible says, but not what the text means.

Pretend, michelle, that there's an atheist here and that they don't believe God exists. Walk us through how you would show them that God exists. However, here's the caveat. You can't use the Bible.

Show them how the Bible is worthy of consideration, assuming they don't share our belief that what the Bible says is true. In other words, starting from "scratch" mimic for us your part of a discussion about the existence of God and the validity of Scripture and then the reality of Jesus death and resurrection, basic Christian apologetics. You can't do it without using logic, michelle. If you can, then by all means do so.

 

Nice little slogan. Can you explain what you mean by it?

 

Your faith and understanding come from what these passages didn't say? That is the charge you are protesting. None of the scriptures have anything at all to do with the KJV, biblical texts, or translations. Few of them have anything to do with the written Word of God at all.

You are stretching and distorting those scriptures plain and simple- this is neither true faith nor logic.

It is never legitimate to use someone's word to support an assertion that they never made. You have to do this to explain your "faith" on this issue because the Bible never says what you believe- not even close.

Satan stretched scripture beyond what God actually said and Eve said "Hmmmm... that sounds pretty good to me." You are doing basically the same thing when you abuse scripture by saying that it proves your belief on versions. You are adding to scripture which is strictly prohibited by reading between the lines so to speak.

That's what I am discussing. You claim that logic and faith are diametrically opposed. I am saying that logic and faith are complementary and that true faith and true logic never contradict.

I have faith in what the Bible says about everything it speaks to... including itself. There is absolutely no contradiction to logic in my position.

You express faith that the KJV is "God's very words" in total contradiction to historical and biblical proof. If you truly had faith in the Bible on this issue, perhaps you wouldn't feel compelled to go beyond what it actually says or demonstrates about the topic.

I am addressing a false dichotomy that you have attempted to employ to justify a position that fails to meet the requirements of logic/reason.

Look at it this way. Logic dictates that every effect in our realm has a cause. The fundamental failure of the Theory of Evolution is that it cannot explain the primary cause.

Your belief about the KJV has a cause. I don't know exactly what it is... but I do know what it isn't. It isn't what God revealed in His Word and it isn't what the historical evidence will support when evaluated using scriptural principles.

 

--------------------------------------------------
Michelle, you have little or no understanding about the law of evidence, do you? Evidence requires more than one witness, and those witnesses cannot be the same person/object you are trying to defend. One testifying of ones self is not considered credible. Logic and faith work hand in hand. If you truly have faith in the KJV, as most here do, then you will and should have outside sources to back up your claims of one version onlyism. No one is disputing your faith. They are disputing your method of presentation and defense of said faith. There is not one version from the beginning of time that promotes, states or in any way, shape or form defends itself or any other version/translation as the ONLY Word of God. It is not logical to assume so, and it shows a lack of faith to honestly approach the subject and study outside sources and be ready to give an honest, historical, factual answer. You accuse people of falsely representing you. You falsely accuse others. You have consistantly refused to present outside sources, historical, factual and otherwise to defend your position, yet you accuse others who understand the truth and principles of defending of using "human reasoning and logic" and "having a lack of faith". This is not so. They understand the importance of historical, documented, accurate proof in defense of ones position. Do you?
---------------------------------------------------

I refer you to Hebrews 11

Hebrews 11

1. Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
2. For by it the elders obtained a good report.
3. Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
4. By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.
5. By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
6. But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
7. By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.
8. By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
9. By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
10. For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
11. Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.
12. Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.
13. These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
14. For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.
15. And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
16. But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.
17. By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,
18. Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:
19. Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.
20. By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau concerning things to come.
21. By faith Jacob, when he was a dying, blessed both the sons of Joseph; and worshipped, leaning upon the top of his staff.
22. By faith Joseph, when he died, made mention of the departing of the children of Israel; and gave commandment concerning his bones.
23. By faith Moses, when he was born, was hid three months of his parents, because they saw he was a proper child; and they were not afraid of the king's commandment.
24. By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter;
25. Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;
26. Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward.
27. By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible.
28. Through faith he kept the passover, and the sprinkling of blood, lest he that destroyed the firstborn should touch them.
29. By faith they passed through the Red sea as by dry land: which the Egyptians assaying to do were drowned.
30. By faith the walls of Jericho fell down, after they were compassed about seven days.
31. By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace.
32. And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets:
33. Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions.
34. Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens.
35. Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:
36. And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment:
37. They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented;
38. (Of whom the world was not worthy they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.
39. And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
40. God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.


This FAITH (unquestioning belief) COMES FROM AND IS in the words of the Lord - the scriptures and NOTHING ELSE, and nothing EVIDENCED.

Again, you are attempting to take this thread off topic, and make it into a KJVO vs. non-KJVO. WE are talking about FAITH VS. LOGIC and the SCRIPTURES - the WORDS OF THE LORD, not some LABEL/NAME attached to them, and false label attached to those who believe and defend them.


Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

Michelle,

Do you agree that we can use logic to show that God exists? Do you agree that we can use logic to show the resurrection happened and that the Bible is God's Word? If not, why? If so, then how is it possible that faith and logic/reason are incompatible / exclusionary concepts?

 

--------------------------------------------------
NOBODY here says faith is unncessary. We dispute the lack of complementariness.

Show us where the Scriptures say that faith and reason are exclusionary and SHOULD BE exclusionary and the basic exposition to support your views. Otherwise, you're just cutting and pasting. You are classically showing an example of a person that knows what the Bible says, but not what the text means.
--------------------------------------------------


You are the one claiming I am wrong, and the scriptures that my understanding and FAITH comes from in this, is not supporting my FAITH in this. The burden is upon you, to show me otherwise. It is quite easy (and in my opinion - lazy) to say no you are not interpreting these scriptures properly, without any expounding upon, or showing with other scriptures to show me that my belief is wrong. I have not only given the scriptural support for my belief (to which is where my FAITH COMES FROM), but have also EXPLAINED my belief to you. It is you, and many others who ONLY explain what they believe, WITHOUT scriptural support, and then claim falsely that I have not done this and haven't proved anything, and boldly claim that I am wrong. I have done BOTH - provided my explanation of what I believe and the scriptures to which this BELIEF comes from. It is easy for you all to claim:


" You are classically showing an example of a person that knows what the Bible says, but not what the text means."


... and without one shred of scriptural support with explanation for your false accusation of me, and my not knowing what the scriptures mean and also for YOUR own belief - which is CONTRARY TO THE SCRIPTURES.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle