Faith vs. Righteousness

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by Frogman, Oct 1, 2003.

  1. Frogman

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    I decided to start another thread to try to discuss the topics listed in my post topic. I am doing this because the statement has been made that righteousness is not necessary, but faith in Christ alone in order to receive eternal salvation. This is an odd statement imho so I would like further discussion to clarify any misunderstandings I may have.

    Having said this, what are your thoughts on the following:

    In Romans 3:22 Paul says, "Even the righteousness of God which is
    by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all [*]them that believe : for there is no difference:"

    Note the following:

    </font>
    • the righteousness of God</font>
    • by faith</font>
    • unto all [and]</font>
    • upon all</font>
    • there is no difference</font>
    • them that believe</font>
    May God Richly Bless our discussion.

    Bro. Dallas Eaton [​IMG]
     
  2. swaimj

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    Righteousness is necessary for salvation, but man has no righteousness. The righteousness we need is the righteousness of Christ; righteousness that is imputed to man when he places faith in Christ.
     
  3. Frogman

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    Thanks Swaimj, but doesn't this include more than two sentences? Or is that wishful thinking.

    The premise is that man can lose this righteousness by losing faith [what I would call unbelieving what is believed].

    The idea is that righteousness [rightly called the righteousness of Christ, but remember Christ is the righteousness of God] is not/or that it cannot be imputed except a person repents and believes. {if that is the wrong order correct me}

    I believe a person repents only because they do believe and this then would be what or how I characterize spiritual regeneration.

    Then, a person believing and repenting, how do they unbelieve? How do they enact an event or series of events to have the righteousness of God which is Christ to be 'unimputed' from them?

    Thanks for the reply.

    Bro. Dallas [​IMG]
     
  4. Me2

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    frogman,

    could you answer a few questions please..

    1) Do you "believe" that God has given you a new righteous spirit or has he somehow "imputed" something towards you or in your favor?.

    (I believe God has imparted his Sons spirit within me. combining my soul with his spirit. and not simply or legally pardoned my sins and trespasses)

    2)isnt the "spiritual" ears and eyes opened to hear God in those already having the "spirit" of God "within" them?.

    again only the spirit of God can only communicate and be understood with itself. "righteous spirit to righteous spirit". not, "carnal to righteous"

    so I would conclude that "believing or repenting" before God "saves" (or imparts his spirit within) someone considered "works", and adding to the works of Christ.
    (allowing even a hint of self righteousness along with the work of Christ.)

    I know about all the scriptures mentioned saying to "repent and believe". but are those statements towards those who have the spirit of God "within" them already?

    I believe so.

    and after regeneration, (or as I believe God actually judges and imparts jesus christ spirit within us)
    "conversion" or sanctification might suggest turning from or "repenting" of "carnal works".
    that this process of educating the new believer by inviting or drawing or teaching a believer to seek christ via living righteously within the law.
    seeing as the purpose of the law is to "kill the works", or mental "persuasions" of our old carnal lifestyle

    (forgive me if I get the PB definitions wrong.. :D )

    Me2
     
  5. Frogman

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    Thanks Me2, I would refer you to someone who knows more of the PB definitions than I do, I am still learning and there are points I am in contention with, so all we can do is speak what something means to us and hope if it is wrong pray the Lord will provide knowledge to grow.

    Now, look at the post above.

    We are told: "Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto and upon all them that believe for there is no difference."

    Now, what is upon and what is unto ?

    Upon means above, while unto means to.

    both represent contact. I would not particularly disagree with your description of the righteousness of God being imputed to us.

    Remember Christ walked upon the water. But not above, he was in contact.

    Therefore, the believer is experiencing the righteousness of God {Christ} and that righteousness is above their own persons, but at the same time they are in contact.

    Does any of that make sense? :confused: Hope so [​IMG]

    Bro. Dallas [​IMG]
     
  6. Me2

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    Frogman,

    The same spirit that was christ's is imparted within us by God OUR Father.

    Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what [is] the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

    this verse doesnt speak of the Holy Spirits presence. It speaks of the "imparted" spirit that has replaced our old cursed carnal spirit.

    but there is also another spirit.. The Holy Spirit..our teacher and comforter.
    (remember at pentacost..the flames upon the heads of the 120..representing the Holy Spirit)

    "upon and unto".

    now the statements were directed both to the jews and gentiles. meaning some after the impartation of the spirit did not accept this "reality" of the "spirit within them" and followed the "law" instead.

    the law by the way is ALSO now a part of the imparted spirit within us. Jesus is the fulfilled law.

    His righteous "spirit of Life" is combined with the righteousness of the Law.

    what is different from the OT Jews that had the law as opposed to the NT believers..
    it is the "spirit of Life" within the NT Believers along with the Law.

    instead of only having the external law and a promise of receiving life beyond death.

    if you have noticed. even today christians do not believe Christ is within their flesh.. the "Spirit of Life".

    remember..

    1Jo 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
    1Jo 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

    John is referring to such jews who live by their own law and deny the spirit of life that is within them..
    just like pauls references to those he speaks of in Romans 1 & 2.
    Living by imaginary laws, following a imaginary God, and denying the real existence of the living spirit that is within them...go figure.

    Me2
     
  7. Frogman

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    I don't understand how you mean some [jews] did not accept the Spirit. Forgive me for this misunderstanding it is a failure of myself and I cannot see how this relates.

    Those Jews not accepting the Spirit, is the assumption they are believers, but not obedient?

    Bro. Dallas
     
  8. Me2

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    frogman,

    whether or not we comprehend that the spirit has been imparted into us.we understand after it Has happened. when the father chooses us and imparts the spirit into Us, then begins the process of teaching the new believer of the plans and will and nature of the One real true God.

    we've discussed this before. we dont choose God. He Chooses Us. We cant beg, or plead, or bargain. He "gives to us" as he chooses. whenever and to whomever.

    jews are termed or symbolized as those living under the OT law. the "External" Law.

    they are also symbolized as rebellious or disobedient children in the NT. (those choosing to live by the law, instead of by faith.)

    anyone receiving the spirit can be rebellious. as well as obedient. but once someone has chosen to go down that path of "refusing to accept the truth that Jesus is their Christ and his spirit is existing within them".
    It take far more effort to change their minds and teachings. although they have his spirit within them.

    As Christ nature contains the law of God. We like the Jews of the OT, follow the same path as all believers trying to serve God by Living by first following the law. when we fail. we admit our failing to the law. if we do not learn to change our behaviors. we admit that we havent failed at following the law and its purposes of correcting our behavior.

    we lie to ourselves and to God by believing the laws purposes of changing our behaviors are not Good. that Gods way is not Good and we soon imagine another God. one that will allow us to fail and not admit to Gods law "the soul that sins shall die".

    we seperate ourselves from the Holy Spirit and his teachings. we seperate ourselves from Christ purpose and office designed to present forgiveness for our failures. we refuse to accept forgiveness and in turn treat others with unforgiveness.

    we go down a spiraling road

    1Jo 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
    1Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
    1Jo 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

    Luk 6:36 Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.
    Luk 6:37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:


    It takes humility. It take dying to self or as I have said before. admit failing to our ability to follow the law and totally present ourselves under submission to the teaching of the Holy Spirit. It takes recognition of failure to follow the law and to turn from refusing to admit failure to failing at the law and asking for forgiveness and mercy and accept Love from God....via a person.

    via His son Jesus Christ that resides within each of Gods Chosen Adopted Children.

    failing at following the law..which is a part of the nature of God stops us from progressing and also learning. Just as believers of today.

    some are Jews and some are Gentiles.

    Some follow the law. symbolized by the Jews

    they refuse to admit at failing at living under the law.
    and further refuse to humble themselves before their Father and his will.

    and their are others symbolizes by the term gentiles who follow the law., fail and turn to God pleading for mercy and forgiveness through Christ their mediator.

    you are correct by your statements regarding not accepting the convictions of the spirit. It is their very spirit that desires to communicate with their God. their doctrine is to follow a specific list of rules to please God. therefore choosing to communicate their way to their God.

    They do Not believe God loves Them enough to Give them a part of Himself and put it within them.

    They believe he is Out There....watching.,waiting to judge them for failing at the Law.

    but do you ever notice God and his mercy.. towards us. When He uses the Terms "to the Jew first and then the Gentiles".
    He is continually offering Love and forgiveness and mercy to the "lawbreakers" (or those termed disobedient) who will not admit to failing to follow their Gods law even to themselves and turn to him... first...then his offer is given to the gentiles or the obedient.

    Me2
     
  9. Frogman

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    Thanks Me2, just so you know, I am not here, nor have I anywhere else supported the idea that we choose to receive Christ.

    I think I have finally met someone who can talk circles around me :eek: [​IMG] [​IMG]

    The reason I posted this is because of the statement that righteousness is not necessary for eternal life, but faith alone. Perhaps this is what you are discussing, but I must admit I cannot follow your discussion.

    Righteousness is compared to a garment. This is the way I was thinking of it when I posted. If it is imparted [even by Spirit] then it is something that is in us, then what is the degree we can refuse to accept it? I don't know that is why I am asking.
    May God Bless you.
     
  10. Yelsew

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    Even Abraham was not righteous, but his faith in God was counted unto his as righteousness.

    If one could be righteous, as in "God's righteousness", one would not need faith, for his righteousness would be sufficient unto salvation. However, none have been righteous, save for Jesus. Therefore, it is Faith and faith alone that saves.

    Even our works of righteousness are as "filthy rags" in God's eyes. They are totally insufficient to save us.

    If we do not have Faith in God, (3 in 1), then no matter how righteous we may deem ourselves to be, we are nothing but a pile of "filthy rags" come judgment day.

    However, if we have faith in God and do not live our lives in righteousness, our faith is subject to question because we live in accordance with what we believe, and walk in accordance with whom we have place our faith in.

    So, once again, it is faith alone that saves us. Works cannot save us! Being righteous requires works of righteousness, and no works of evil, no sin! Old testament atonement for sin required blood sacrifice!

    Faith enables confession of sin and forgiveness and cleansing from sin, and is based upon the ONCE for ALL atonement of Sin provided by Jesus, the Son of God, the Messiah.
     
  11. Frogman

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    Once again I say you are seeking for the knowledge of the heart and have not that power nor authority. Did Abraham ever lose faith? yes. Did he ever lose the cloak of righteousness provided him as a covering [atonement]? no.

    It is the goodness of God that leadeth you to repentance, not your faith.

    Bro. Dallas
     
  12. Frogman

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    The Bible says Noah was a preacher of righteousness, why did he not preach faith?

    can we prove by the Bible that no one but Noah and his family were eternally saved?

    Bro. Dallas
     
  13. Yelsew

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    There wasn't much discussion of faith before Abram, but there was about righteousness. So it is only natural that Noah should preach righteousness.

    No, can we prove otherwise?
     
  14. Frogman

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    There wasn't much discussion of faith before Abram, but there was about righteousness. So it is only natural that Noah should preach righteousness.

    No, can we prove otherwise?
    </font>[/QUOTE]What kind of answer is this? [referring to the topic of Noah's preaching].
     
  15. Yelsew

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    Where in Scripture prior to Abram, do we find discussion of Faith?
     
  16. Frogman

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    It might help to read the above verses until you see the faith that was there prior to Abram.
     
  17. Yelsew

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    If you realize this to be true, then why do you question Noah's preaching righteousness, as you did?
     
  18. Me2

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    Hold on to your seats,


    Can you see in the verses (heb:11 1-13)mentioned that there are two "persons" mentioned

    the father and son.

    believers are "witnessing" what the Son is believing.
    we are "seeing" what the son is "seeing" by within his faith.


    Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
    Heb 11:2 For by it the elders obtained a good report.


    Heb 11:3 Through faith
    Heb 11:4 By faith Abel
    Heb 11:5 By faith Enoch

    Heb 11:6 But without faith [it is] impossible to please [him]: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and [that] he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

    Heb 11:7 By faith Noah,
    Heb 11:8 By faith Abraham
    Heb 11:9 By faith he
    Heb 11:11 Through faith also Sara promised.
    Heb 11:13 These all died in faith


    Heb 11:17 By faith Abraham
    Heb 11:20 By faith Isaac blessed
    Heb 11:21 By faith Jacob
    Heb 11:22 By faith Joseph
    Heb 11:23 By faith Moses
    Heb 11:24 By faith Moses
    Heb 11:27 By faith he forsook Egypt
    Heb 11:28 Through faith he kept the passover
    Heb 11:29 By faith they passed through
    Heb 11:30 By faith the walls of Jericho fell
    Heb 11:31 By faith the harlot Rahab perished not .

    Heb 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset [us], and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
    Heb 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of [our] faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
    Heb 12:3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.

    Notice that there is no reference to individual faith but “the faith”.
    the faith of the spirit of the son

    these are all events of “the spirit of the son” relying on “the promises of the father”
    substance of things hoped for….hoped of… by the son.

    The evidence seen “in the invisible” by the spirit of the son.

    Try to stretch you vision and think..”created and finished before time”. The events that have occurred in the spirit realm yet havent been lived out in the physical. Once they begin to unfold in our present timeline.

    We rely on the “vision” of the son and his “witness” of the event occuring peradventure in the spirit realm.

    We are living within the life of the son. This is his life’s story and everyone in it is interconnected. Together, we create his life from beginning to end. Before the creation of this world. The father through faith has “lived out” in the spirit what “is”
    Now, we are seeing this life unfold in the physical realm. We see through Jesus’s eyes. We Live by what “he has witnessed to” before time in the spirit realm.


    Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times [the things] that are not [yet] done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:


    Rev 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

    All of these witnesses mentioned in hebrews saw what “was” through “his” eyes, through his faith of what “is” and has already been determined to occur in their lives, “in Him”

    Something to think about.

    Me2
     
  19. Frogman

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    Because there is more involved than faith, man cannot have faith of himself, it will not provide to him the cloak of righteousness. Noah is said to be a preacher of righteousness not because there were no believers in his time except those who entered into the ark. But because he was preaching the message to believers that they should repent and return to God.

    This is the message of repentance. When we tell a lost person to repent, they count their moral deeds and say, I have no need, and this is equivalent to saying 'physician heal thyself'. Now, it is impossible for an unregenerated person to repent. It is the goodness of God that leadeth you [and me] to repentance, both as a backslidden Church member and before. We not only cannot, but we will not repent because of pride in our hearts we seek first to justify our sins rather than to turn from them. This requires the regeneration of our spirits by the Holy Spirit, only then are we enabled to repent and turn to God.

    Bro. Dallas [​IMG]
     
  20. Yelsew

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    In no one can, then how did Noah?
     

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