Faith, where does it come "in" when someone is saved?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by convicted1, Nov 25, 2010.

  1. convicted1

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    I know that this is the quintessential "C/A" debate out there, so I thought I'd ask this. Where does faith "come into play" in salvation? Is it before? Is it simultaenous? Is it after we are saved? Bro Luke2427 made mention that is after we are saved in the thread about "unregenerated man, what can he do?". So, keep you hands up, obey all my commands, keep your punches "ABOVE THE WAIST", no rabbitt punches, and go to your corner, and then "Let's get it on", Mills Lane style!!

    Also, please use scripture to make your case!!:jesus::thumbs::thumbs:

    i am I am's!!

    Willis
     
  2. Jim1999

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    "By grace are you saved, through faith, and that not of yourself, it is the gift of God"

    Action,,,,grace,,,,,,faith....reaction.....

    It is a gift from God.

    Cheers,

    Jim
     
  3. Earth Wind and Fire

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    As Jim said....By Grace Alone, Through Faith Alone, In Christ Alone. Youve heard the song "Amazing Grace" Right.
     
  4. Old Union Brother

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    God never called a man to repentance and not give him a tool to work with. I believe that tool is faith. I am going to let scripture speak:

    Matthew 17:20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.

    Matthew 21:21 Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done.

    What mountain was this speaking of? I believe it was a mountain of sin that I had to pray to be removed from me. When I got faith as a grain of a mustard seed I prayed for that mountain to be removed and it was.

    Luke 5:20 And when he saw their faith, he said unto him, Man, thy sins are forgiven thee.

    Luke 7:50 And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.

    Luke8:48 And he said unto her, Daughter, be of good comfort: thy faith hath made thee whole; go in peace.

    Luke 17:19 And he said unto him, Arise, go thy way: thy faith hath made thee whole.

    Luke 18:42 And Jesus said unto him, Receive thy sight: thy faith hath saved thee.

    When I was being convicted because of my sin I had need of being made whole. I could not see the works of God, I couldn’t speak the things of God and I couldn’t walk in his light. I had to have sight given me, I had to have my tongue loosed, and I had to be healed of my lameness.

    Acts 15:9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

    I had to have my sinful heart purified.

    If need be, I will continue with more scriptures later on.

    A fellow servant of God

    Jeff
     
    #4 Old Union Brother, Nov 25, 2010
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  5. Tom Butler

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    Faith is a gift of the Holy Spirit.

    I Cor 12:9 ".....to another faith by the same Spirit."

    One may argue that this faith is one which is given to one who is already a believer. The point I make is not who has the faith, but the source.

    Philippians 1:29 "For unto you it is given on behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake."

    Jim1999 quoted Ephesians 2:8: "For by grace are you saved, through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is a gift of God."

    I believe "that" is faith, thus is a gift of God.

    Most of us are perfectly willing to describe grace as a gift. And salvation as a gift. We believe the Holy Spirit acts sovereignly in bringing conviction to a lost man's heart. We believe drawing is an act of God. We confess that when the Holy Spirit opened our eyes to spiritual truth, it was a unilateral act on His part.

    In light of the scriptures quoted, I doubt if God, having provided everything else needed to bring one to salvation, would say, "Okay, about this faith thing: you're on your own here. Best of luck to ya."

    Oh, the OP question: God's grace precedes God-given faith, which precedes God-given salvation.
     
    #5 Tom Butler, Nov 25, 2010
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  6. Old Union Brother

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    :thumbs::thumbs: Amen
     
  7. psalms109:31

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    Faith

    Galatians 3:8
    Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you.”

    Romans 10:17
    Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.

    John 6:63
    The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit and life.

    John 12:49
    For I did not speak on my own, but the Father who sent me commanded me to say all that I have spoken.

    John 5:25
    Very truly I tell you, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live.

    Dead is unregenerate!

    John 6:45
    It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.


    Faith is a gift of God through the words of Jesus, but any gift free or not you have to accept it to obtain it. We should not forget

    Romans 4
    Abraham Justified by Faith
    1 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter? 2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3 What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”[Gen. 15:6; also in verse 22]

    4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness. 6 David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the one to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:


    Also this.

    Romans 6:23
    For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.


    So we know that the cost of our sin is death, not faith. So we are saved by grace, because Jesus paid our debt that faith teaches us.
     
    #7 psalms109:31, Nov 25, 2010
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  8. Winman

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    Regeneration (being born again, spiritually alive) cannot come before faith, because your sins cannot be forgiven until you place faith in Christ. You cannot be regenerated and in your sins at the same time, it is sin that causes spiritual death.

    The scriptures clearly show believeing (faith) precedes life (regeneration). They also show faith comes by hearing the word of God.

    John 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

    John 20:31 shows where faith comes from. It says "these are written, that ye might believe". Faith is not some sort of magical spell placed upon you, faith is simply believeing what God says in his Word. If God did not reveal his words to us, then we could not possibly have faith in them. You cannot have faith in something you do not know.

    And Paul shows this in Romans as well.

    Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

    Notice Paul asks "and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard?" So, you cannot believe in something you have never heard. But nowhere does scriptures show faith is some sort of spell cast on a person, Paul simply says a person must "hear", that is, take heed and believe what God says.

    And going back to John 20:31, notice it says "and that believeing ye might have life". You cannot be regenerated, that is, you cannot be spritually alive until all your sins are forgiven, for it is your sins that makes you dead. And you cannot have your sins forgiven until you first trust or believe on Jesus. It is only after your sins are removed that you can be spiritually alive.

    Faith is a gift from God in the respect that we could not possibly believe God's words unless he had first revealed them to us. This revealing of God's word to us is a gift.
     
    #8 Winman, Nov 25, 2010
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  9. percho

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    KJV - Rom 3:27 -
    Where [is] boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.


    What is the law of faith?

    I believe the following began at Pentecost and is still being done today. I believe these to be the called out ones the church. I will paste two translations for better understanding. (I added for understanding)

    KJV - Act 15:14 -
    Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. (sake)

    YNG - Act 15:14 -
    Simeon did declare how at first God did look after to take out of the nations a people for His name, (sake)

    In the next verse James says the prophets agree with this statement.

    Lets look at one of the prophets. I think you would find they all say the same. Why? Because it is what God is doing. Are people being called because of what they believe or because of the faith/faithfulness of God.

    Ezekiel 36:17,18,21,22,24,25,26,27,28,
    Son of man, when the house of Israel dwelt in their own land, they defiled it by their own way and by their doings: their way was before me as the uncleanness of a removed woman. (He gave her a bill of divorce) And I scattered them among the heathen,(same as Gentiles, nations) and they were dispersed through the countries: according to their way and according to their doings I judged them. But I had pity for mine holy name, which the house of Israel had profaned among the heathen, whither they went. But I had pity for mine holy name, which the house of Israel had profaned among the heathen,(Gentiles,nations( whither they went. Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not [this] for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen,(Gentiles, nations) whither ye went. For I will take you from among the heathen,(Gentiles nations) and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do [them]. And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.

    Does this sound like what is being done to those of Acts 15:14 the called out ones?

    Even though all Israel shall be saved at some point in time. Is he taking out all in the nations at this time? In Romans 11 God says Israel in part have been blinded. But he also says in verse 5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. Jeremiah 3:14 Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion: 15:And I will give you pastors according to mine heart, which shall feed you with knowledge and understanding. What did he tell Peter, "Feed my sheep".

    The law of faith = Galatians 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, [it is] evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

    Whose faith? Habakkuk 2:4 Behold, his soul [which] is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith. Whose? Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

    Will God then be able to graft back in those that were blinded? Rom. 11 What about the residue of man? See Acts 15:17 See Joel 2:32

    God is in the saving business yet he is doing it God's way.
     
    #9 percho, Nov 25, 2010
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  10. Winman

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    What are you trying to say here? Paul said faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. It is that simple.

    Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

    It doesn't get any plainer than this, Paul is explaining where faith comes from. Does Paul say a man has to be regenerated to have faith? No. He fails to mention it here or anywhere else in all of scripture. Paul simply says faith comes by "hearing", but then shows it comes by hearing the word of God.

    Paul had already asked how anybody can believe in Christ unless they had "heard" of him. Again, all that Paul indicates that is necessary to have faith is to hear the word of God. You can't believe in Jesus if you have never heard of him.

    Calvinists teach that a person must be regenerated to believe, but that is impossible. To be regenerated means to have spiritual life, and you cannot have spiritual life while you are still in all your trespasses and sins.

    Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

    The wages of sin is death. It is our sins and trespasses that causes us to be dead. Your sins must be removed before you can be made spiritually alive.

    If God simply regenerates us, makes us spiritually alive, then what need is there to believe on Jesus? You already have everlasting life.

    No, the scriptures clearly show you must first believe to have life. When you believe on Jesus, then and only then are your sins forgiven. Only then can you have spiritual life.

    John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

    He that believes has life, he that believes not shall not see life. You must believe to be regenerated, to have life.

    The scriptures teach you must believe to have life, Calvinism teaches the exact opposite, that you must have life to believe.
     
    #10 Winman, Nov 25, 2010
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  11. convicted1

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    Here are some passages from Ephesians Ch. 1 that might be helpful.

    Eph.1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

    13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

    14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

    Here is the Greek word used for through in Eph. 1:7 and 2:8:

    dia Strong's 1223

    1) through

    a) of place

    1) with

    2) in

    b) of time

    1) throughout

    2) during

    c) of means

    1) by

    2) by the means of

    2) through


    a) the ground or reason by which something is or is not done

    1) by reason of

    2) on account of

    3) because of for this reason

    4) therefore

    5) on this account

    This word is found 667 times in 580 verses, particularll(sp?) in Eph.1:7 and 2:8.

    Eph. 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

    9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

    13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

    14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

    15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

    16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

    17And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

    18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

    Pay close attention to verse 18. It say we have access to the Father through Jesus. The only way to the Father is through Jesus.

    Acts 3:16 And his name through faith in his name hath made this man strong, whom ye see and know: yea, the faith which is by him hath given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all.

    Now the word through used in this verse is the Greek word epi
    which is 1909 in Strong's. Here are the meanings for this word:

    1) upon, on, at, by, before

    2) of position, on, at, by, over, against

    3) to, over, on, at, across, against

    So this verse could be written "and His name by faith hath He made man strong."

    Rom.10:8But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

    9Thatif thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

    10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

    11For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

    12For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

    13For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

    14How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

    15And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

    16But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

    17So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.


    So you see, Brethern, faith is the "vehicle" by which we travel to grace. It's like you want to get from point "A" to point "B" and the only way to go is through a tunnel. That "tunnel" is our faith. Faith is the "tunnel" from us to the Throne of Grace.

    i am I am's!!

    Willis
     
  12. zrs6v4

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    Faith is simultaneous/precedes justification.

    Yet the grace of God precedes faith.

    Ephesians chapters 1-2 in its entirety demonstrate this.

    John chapter 6 was also quoted which mirrors John chapter 10 in some ways.

    John 6:35-40 and John 10:26-29

    John 6:35-40- Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life ; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst." But I said to you that you have seen Me, and yet do not believe." All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out." For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me." This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day." For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

    (see also 6:44 and 6:63-65, these show that the Spirit brings the sheep in accordance with the Father's will with the work of the Son)

    John 10:26-29- "But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish ; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all ; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand."
     
  13. convicted1

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    Dear zrs6v4,

    I bolded this statement to address this solely. You state that the "Grace of God" precedes faith. Lets see what this "Grace of God" is.

    Tit.2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

    12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

    13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

    14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

    Now, the "Grace of God" here is Jesus. How can Jesus precede faith, meaning, how can He save anyone apart from faith??

    From John Ch. 8:

    24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

    25 Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them, Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning.

    26 I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him.

    27 They understood not that he spake to them of the Father.

    28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

    29 And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.

    30 As he spake these words, many believed on him. Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God!!

    31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;

    32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

    Gal. Ch. 3:

    6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. Some people have this backwards. Abraham "believed God first, and it was then accounted/imputed unto him for righteousness.

    7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

    8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

    9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

    10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

    11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

    12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

    13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

    14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.


    So like I said, we are in the same boat as Abraham, through adoption, and to get in that boat, is through faith.


    i am I am's!!

    Willis
     
  14. kyredneck

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    .....It behoveth you to be born from above; the Spirit where he willeth doth blow, and his voice thou dost hear, but thou hast not known whence he cometh, and whither he goeth; thus is every one who hath been born of the Spirit.` Jn3:7,8 YLT



    Brother Willis,

    Do you believe that being 'sealed with that holy Spirit of promise' is the same as being 'born from above' i.e. 'born of the spirit'?
     
    #14 kyredneck, Nov 26, 2010
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  15. convicted1

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    Bro Tom,

    That which I bolded, I like!!! :thumbs::thumbs::jesus:
     
  16. convicted1

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    Yes I do. :thumbs::thumbs:
     
  17. webdog

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    "But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth. And it was for this that He called you through our gospel that you may gain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. So then, brethren, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us." (II THESSALONIANS 2:13-15).

    Note "through", not before... sanctification (the work) of the Holy Spirit and faith in the Truth...and this was through the Gospel.
     
  18. convicted1

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    Amen Brother!!!:thumbs:
     
  19. freeatlast

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    First off defining faith is part of what is needed. The Greek has words for faith/believe where some are verbs and some are nouns. It is not about picking one or the other, but about looking at both to come up with proper understanding of biblical faith unto salvation. John uses mostly the verb form. However both forms must be considered in coming to the correct understanding of what is meant by "faith or belief." Also the faith/belief cannot be any old belief because true faith/belief comes from the word of God (Romans 10:17)

    It is true that part of belief/faith is simply believing the facts ( the noun form), but this type of faith by itself does not save and leaves the person in the same place as the devils (James 2:19). They believe and tremble. So doing this is only part of what must happen to be in biblical faith unto salvation. One also must have the verb side of the word and act on that belief. One example might be like this. A person can believe with all their heart that the vehicle setting outside will start and take them to the store. They can confess that to everyone they meet and that is a form of faith (Noun form). However it would not be working faith (biblical faith) until they actually went out and put the key in, turned the key, and started the vehicle. Living or biblical faith requires an action on the part of the one claiming such, (verb form, not simply lip service or head knowledge). In this case it would be said that the person started the vehicle by faith. The same is with biblical faith/belief unto salvation although the faith unto salvation is not a one time event like starting a vehicle. A biblical example is Hebrews 11:7 where Noah built the Ark by faith. Notice he did not just believe it and talk about it. It was built because of or by faith.

    True biblical repentance and faith unto salvation becomes a state in which the person being saved is placed by God through the Spirit at salvation and is never departed from. 1john 3:9 shows what that evidence is once they are sealed in that state of faith. I must point out that in 1John 3 the Greek is of a structure that says "does not practice sin", not, does not sin at all. We don't keep ourselves in this repentance and faith. The repenter simply comes in proper repentance and faith and is then sealed into that faith by the Spirit. We are kept there by the Spirit (its called eternal security). Since our repentance and faith becomes a state that we are kept in by the Spirit our salvation never ends (John 10:27,28). So the faith that the person claims to have initially has to be of a type that brings them to Jesus Christ and accepts Him for who He is, Lord, at which point He seals us with the Spirit unto a state of faith and salvation.

    In the case of salvation the turning to God is the action one must have (repentance). However it must be a turning for the right purpose and that must be one of wanting to get right with God (His terms not ours regardless of cost,this is the spirit/heart one must have).

    The catalyst that moves one from simply believing (noun) to actually committing to the belief (verb or action) is repentance which leads to salvation (2Cor. 7:10). True biblical repentance leads to salvation because of a broken heart or sorrow brought on by the absence of God in our life due to sin and we are lead to the One who holds the key to salvation for all and that is Jesus Christ. If the person then confesses Jesus as Lord they become saved (Romans 10:9-10). However I would caution here that this confession is not simply a set of words where the person states the fact that Jesus is Lord even though He is. The Greek for confess means to hold to, or say the same thing as another. In this case to confess means that the person doing the confessing is by their confession accepting Jesus as THEIR Lord. At that moment biblical faith has been exercised through repentance and salvation is given with a seal of the Spirit never to be repented of 2Cor 7:10.

    So to the question where does faith come in. It comes in at the moment of salvation and is lived out the rest of the saved one's life in the form of obedience brought on by the Spirit, (1 John 3)not by our own works, but unto good works(Eph 2:8-10)brought on by God. While all this does not have to take place in the thought process of the individual who is seeking to get right with God it is none the less the heart/spirit of the person that is coming to God which brings salvation.
     
    #19 freeatlast, Nov 26, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 26, 2010
  20. kyredneck

    kyredneck
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    So you say when Christ told Nicodemus, 'It behoveth you to be born from above', He was implementing something new, and not revealing a mystery from old, something that had always been.

    Would you please give me your take on Ps 87 concerning those during the time of the 'Old Covenant', from several nations, that were 'born from above', citizens of the Heavenly Zion, to which I believe the promises given to Israel in the OT pertain to? Paul refers directly to these children of the 'Jerusalem that is above' in Gal 4 when he says she is the mother of us all.

    Also explain to me how He could tell Nicodemus, 'It behoveth you to be born from above', when it didn't even apply yet.
     

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