Faith without deeds is dead

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by psalms109:31, Nov 9, 2006.

  1. psalms109:31

    psalms109:31
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2006
    Messages:
    3,600
    Likes Received:
    0
    Even the demons believe and shouder. Our faith is shown by what we do.

    What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him?
     
  2. Lacy Evans

    Lacy Evans
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2003
    Messages:
    2,364
    Likes Received:
    0
    Depends on what you mean by "save". More importantly, it depends upon what James meant by it. (It matters not what Brother Mullins thought.)

    lacy
     
  3. psalms109:31

    psalms109:31
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2006
    Messages:
    3,600
    Likes Received:
    0
    saved

    Our Faith is simple it is shown by what we do.

    Faith without deeds is a dead faith.

    Our dependance for our salvation is in Jesus.

    We can't be sunday believers.

    We are not saved by our works, but the works of Jesus.

    We are saved unto deeds, because our faith in evident by what we do.

    The bible is put together in an order for a reason.

    We are saved by grace not to sit on our rears.

    I love this part of his song.

     
  4. Amy.G

    Amy.G
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2006
    Messages:
    13,103
    Likes Received:
    0
    Absolutely!
     
  5. James_Newman

    James_Newman
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2004
    Messages:
    5,013
    Likes Received:
    0
    James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.


    James seems to say that we are saved by not sitting on our rears.
     
  6. psalms109:31

    psalms109:31
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2006
    Messages:
    3,600
    Likes Received:
    0
    scripoture

    Romans 3:20 -- "Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in [God's] sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin."

    Romans 3:28 -- "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law."

    Titus 3:5
    he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit,

    What about James 2:24 ("You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only" James 2:24, NKJV.)

    James here is dealing with people who confess to be Christain not unbelievers, saying that our faith is evident by what we do.
     
  7. npetreley

    npetreley
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2002
    Messages:
    7,359
    Likes Received:
    0
    Right. If Jesus truly lives in you, it will show. For it is God who works in us to will and to do according to His good purpose.
     
  8. James_Newman

    James_Newman
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2004
    Messages:
    5,013
    Likes Received:
    0
    Well, you're saying he is saying that anyway. I suppose that is one way to eliminate a contradiction, just say it isn't one. But if James is talking about the same justification that Paul is speaking of in Romans 3, he is plainly contradicting Paul.
     
  9. psalms109:31

    psalms109:31
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2006
    Messages:
    3,600
    Likes Received:
    0
    scripture

    I see where you are comming from.

    Paul and James are talking about two different justification

    Paul is talking about the works ofd the Law.

    James is talking about our trust in Jesus and hope in Him.

    We cannot be justified by the Law, only through Jesus
     
  10. psalms109:31

    psalms109:31
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2006
    Messages:
    3,600
    Likes Received:
    0
    Under the Law

    Under the Law we lived by the law to save ourselves under grace we live for Christ that others my see our good deeds and praise our Father in heaven
     
  11. James_Newman

    James_Newman
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2004
    Messages:
    5,013
    Likes Received:
    0
    Well, I would say that Paul is talking about being justified in the eternal sense by resting in faith in the work of Christ on the cross.

    Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

    And that James is speaking of another justification that is only possible for those who are already justified by faith. Rather than concluding that James is telling us that we don't really have faith if we don't have works, he is telling us that if we don't add works to our faith, we will not obtain this justification.
     
  12. psalms109:31

    psalms109:31
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2006
    Messages:
    3,600
    Likes Received:
    0
    Scripture

    Selah

    I agree
     
  13. Lacy Evans

    Lacy Evans
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2003
    Messages:
    2,364
    Likes Received:
    0
    Amen! It depends on what you mean (What meaning the context dictates) by "saved".

    lacy
     
  14. psalms109:31

    psalms109:31
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2006
    Messages:
    3,600
    Likes Received:
    0
    scripture

    James 1:
    Trials and Temptations
    2Consider it pure joy, my brothers, whenever you face trials of many kinds, 3because you know that the testing of your faith develops perseverance. 4Perseverance must finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything. 5If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him. 6But when he asks, he must believe and not doubt, because he who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind. 7That man should not think he will receive anything from the Lord; 8he is a double-minded man, unstable in all he does.

    That man should not think he will receive anything from the Lord, that means anything
     
  15. DHK

    DHK
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    37,982
    Likes Received:
    134
    James is talking about the same justification as Paul.
    There is no contradiction, only a failure of some to understand the Bible. Why would anyone infer that the Bible contradicts itself?
    "Therefore being justified by faith we have peace with God." That is the only justification that there is. There is no other. Let's not add heresy to the Bible.
    "For by grace are ye saved through faith and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God not of works lest any man should boast.
    Salvation is not of works.

    James is addressing believers. Not once does he infer that he is addressing unbelievers. The word "brethren" is used numerous times. Not once is the plan of salvation given. This is a book of practical Christian living for the believer, not the unbeliever. James gives some practical illustrations in demonstrating what faith is.

    Faith is confidence in the word of another. Abraham had confidence in the word (the promise) of God.

    Romans 4:20-21 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.

    There is what faith is: "being fully persuaded that what God had promised he was able also to perform." He was confident in the promises of God. He was fully persuaded in the words of God.

    James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
    --A dead corpse is useless. Command a dead corpse to do anything and it cannot. It is useless. It cannot obey you in any way. Thus it is with faith. A person with "dead" faith is useless. If one never exercises their faith for all practical purposes it is dead. That doesn't mean they are not saved. There are many Christians like this. They sit in the pew on Sunday, listen to the sermon, and go live like the world the rest of the week. Their faith is dead--useless. The word dead means useless according to the Greek. It does not mean non-existent or annihilated. It means useless, just like a corpse is useless. Faith that is not put in action is useless faith.
    We walk by faith and not by sight. Do you walk a walk of faith? Do you live by faith? Many do not.

    James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
    --James uses this illustration for emphasis--a hyperbole.
    They believed in God; the demons believed also. But their "faith" was useless as far as any result was concerned. What kind of result will your faith give you? Will it result in the fruit of the Spirit? the salvation of souls?, etc. It is a living faith, useful to the service of the Lord, or a useless faith. This has nothing to do with salvation, but practical Christian living.
    DHK
     
  16. J. Jump

    J. Jump
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2004
    Messages:
    4,108
    Likes Received:
    0
    DHK it amazes me that you get the context of James correct, but you still misapply what James is speaking about. I don't understand how you can so clearly understand who the book is written to and for what purpose and still come away with the stance you take on the book. It boggles my mind.

    But here's a question for you. You say there is only one justification and that James and Paul are speaking of the same thing. So why is James speaking about something those folks already have? It's pointless.

    Okay I guess I have two questions. And since you understand that James is speaking to believers why does he tell them in verse 21 of chapter one that there is still a salvation that they need if there is only one salvation and they are already saved?
     
  17. DHK

    DHK
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    37,982
    Likes Received:
    134
    "To the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad...brethren...Greetings.
    He is speaking to his Jewish brethren, Christians which had a Jewish background--Christians which needed no salvation. That is obvious from the introduction.

    James 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.

    Where does he say that they need salvation? Don't read into Scripture something that is not there. "The word which is able to save your souls doesn't mean that they are not already saved. There is the matter of practical teaching about the power of the Word of God. God's Word is necessary in the salvation of our souls. To state such a truth does not mean that the "brethren" were not saved, does it?

    Your logic goes like this:
    James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
    --Since James quoted this verse, none of the readers of James epistle can be saved because none of them can keep the law. But that is not what he said is it? He is stating a truth, just like he is in 1:21.

    They already have salvation. There is only one salvation--salvation through the blood of Christ. Any other salvation is heretical. Paul said let that person be called accursed.
    DHK
     
  18. J. Jump

    J. Jump
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2004
    Messages:
    4,108
    Likes Received:
    0
    Like I said it amazes me that you can be 100% on context (at least to the point of the audience and their spiritual condition), but totally miss the mark on what is being talked about.

    James 1:21 is telling them to do something for something. If they already had the salvation that is being talked about he wouldn't have told them to lay aside those things, becuase they would have already done so. He was telling them to do it so that their souls would be saved.

    Again unfortunatley Christendom has REALLY muddied the water on salvation. It is not our souls that are saved by grace through faith, but our spirits that are made alive and saved at that moment.

    Our souls then come into play and are saved by faith mixed with works (according to James) and not by faith alone.

    But we've been through all of this before so no need to rehash it as you clearly still hold that either we are not a tri-part being or that all three parts are saved at the same time, both which are clearly misled according to Scripture.
     
  19. DHK

    DHK
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    37,982
    Likes Received:
    134
    I don't believe for an instant that I have missed the mark.
    So like all the religions of the world you just confessed that you believe in salvation by works--heresy. Salvation is by grace through faith. That is the only salvation that the Bible speaks of. There is only one salvation.
    You contradict yourself. At first you agree that James is speaking to believers, and that the epistle is written to believers ("Brethren," etc.)
    Then you turn around and say that they aren't saved according to vs.21. What a contradiction!! There is only one salvation; there is only one gospel. Any person that comes with another gospel (according to Gal.1 is accursed). You are inserting your own unfounded conclusions to James teaching in this verse.
    Christendom may have muddied the waters; but that doesn't mean that you or I have to do the same.
    You said: "It is not our soul that is saved by grace..."
    "The soul that sinneth it shall die."
    Of course it is the soul that is saved. Though there may be a differentiation between soul and spirit as in Heb.4:12, the phrases are also used interchangeably quite often. One cannot make a hard and fast rule that the soul is used the same way 100% of the time and the spirit is used in another context 100% of the time. Sometimes they are used interchangeably. When one is born again, Jesus Christ, by the power of his Holy Spirit comes and lives within. His Spirit is somehow bound with our Spirit which is intertwined in some way with our soul. We just cannot take a knife and divide the three up. When Christ comes in he just doesn't come and dwell in a little corner of my heart (soul or mind). He is my all in all. I have the fullness of the Holy Spirit. That includes my spirit, my soul, (heart or mind) all that dwells within me.
    And when Christ saved me, it just wasn't my toes. It was all of me. Technically the only part of me that isn't "saved" is my body, for we wait for the redemption of our bodies (the resurrection).
    So perhaps it would be accurate to say that if ones soul is not saved, then they are not saved.
    Not true; not even according to James. James speaks of active vs. non-active or useless faith. He isn't even speaking of salvation. He is speaking to Christians. Nowhere is the plan of salvation referred to; it is not given; it is not talked about; it is not even mentioned. His entire theme is pracitical Christian living for the Christians that he is writing to--for the brethren. No one has ever been saved by works--no one! That is a slap in the face of Christ who paid the penalty of our sin with His own blood. What are you saying? Was not His blood sufficient enough for you that you have to help your salvation along by doing some works too? Are you helping Jesus out in your salvation??
    The Bible may teach that we are tri-partite beings. But we don't have to butcher the doctrine of soteriology to believe it.
    DHK
     
  20. webdog

    webdog
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2005
    Messages:
    24,691
    Likes Received:
    0
    Amen, DHK...preach it! :thumbs:
     

Share This Page

Loading...