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"Faith without works is dead" (James 2:17)

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by Ruht, Aug 6, 2002.

  1. Star

    Star New Member

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    Ruht,

    I knew I loved you the day my eyes read through your posts, your words affirm to me what I know is true. I am overjoyed in seeing the truth expressed through your words. The only thing I'm left with is a hearty "Amen"! You said it all and I have nothing left to add.

    I'll be away from the board for a day or so. Keep posting brother I really enjoy your insightful sharing.

    In Him Kim [​IMG]
     
  2. Ruht

    Ruht Guest

    This is a metaphor of the birth of the Holy Spirit, not a literal writing of the letter of the law on the heart of man. When God says that the law is "written on the heart" of the saved, he means that the hearts of the saved are literally born of the Holy Spirit, the being God who wrote the law in stones.

    We obey Christ when we are born of his Holy Spirit, for our nature is then forever changed into creatures under the will of the Holy Spirit.

    As Star tried to tell you, love is the fulfillment of each and every law. Therefore if we are born of love, born of God (for God is love), then we will fulfill that which the foundation of the law was written upon, which is love.

    Thou shalt not lie, steal, murder, commit adultery, etc., are all written against hatred and non-love, against the spirit of sin which lives in the hearts of each and every unsaved individual. For, if a person truly loves others, he will not do these things to others because he does not want to hurt anyone in any way, shape or form. Therefore when man is born of love, he does not need a written law to tell him not to do these things to his neighbor, for he loves his neighbor and will not do these things (by nature) even if there was no law against him for doing so.

    However, take the written law away from the unsaved unrighteous who are only trying to keep them out of fear of punishment, and their true nature will come forth, and they will indeed do these things, because their hearts are not born of love; not born again; not born of the Holy Spirit.

    A truly saved, righteous person will continue to do good even if there is no written law, because he loves his neighbor as himself. However, a person who is not truly saved, not born of love, will not continue to do good if there is no law "forcing" him to do good. He instead will do what his nature dictates, and he will then not do the things produced by a Spirit of love, because he is not born of such a Spirit, but rather is indwelled by the spirit of sin which came into mankind in the garden of Eden from the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

    And written law cannot remove or "circumcise" this spirit from unsaved man, only a supernatural removal or "circumcision" is able to remove this from man. And this will not be done for man until he is saved.

    Trying to make yourself good through written law is like trying to make yourself tall by standing on stilts. You are not really tall, but rather just doing something artificial to try to appear tall. Likewise, when one who has the spirit of sin living inside of his spirit (heart) tries to cover up his inward man by trying to "act" good on the outside, he is not really good, but rather trying to artificially be good; whether he understands this or not. The only way for such a person to be truly tall and truly good is to be supernaturally changed into such a state, not by doing something artificial that only makes one appear as such.

    God created us and he knew what our problem was, and it was that which entered into man in the garden of Eden and has been passed down to all of mankind ever since, the spirit of sin. This is why Christ said that we must be born again, because he is our Creator and he knew what was in the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, and what happened to mankind because of that. He knew that this spirit of sin must be removed from men in order to change them on the inside; but this he would not do until we become saved. And we could not become saved until our sins were paid in full by a Saviour.

    We are literally created with the spirit of sin within us when we are conceived, and we are literally born of the Holy Spirit when we are saved, and the spirit of sin is then literally removed from our spirits at that time, forever. For the spirit of sin is like a DNA code that is like a spiritual virus which is able to change our nature.

    When we are saved and born of the Holy Spirit, this code is somehow made neutral and not able to cause us to be controlled by it, much like if an anti-virus program on your computer is able to make benign a computer virus. However, until we are saved and born of the Holy Spirit, this "virus" of sin is able to control our wills, and cause us to do things which we know are wrong, but which we still do anyway. It is actually stronger than our own will before we are saved, as Paul revealed in Romans 7:18, and it has changed the nature of man that we originally had in the garden of Eden.

    In the garden of Eden (before the fall of man) we did not even have the knowledge that we were naked, as our original spiritual coding was not programmed by God to allow us to know such a thing. We lived in no shame, and we were not capable of knowing that we were naked, or even having the "knowledge of good and evil" that we got after having our spiritual coding changed by the virus of sin that entered into our spirits through the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

    God told us not to eat from that tree, as he knew what would happen to us if we did. And just as physical viruses are able to make our bodies sick, and make them go out of control and do things which our bodies wouldn't normally do, even so the spiritual virus of sin contained within the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil made our spirits sick, and likewise causes the spirits of the unsaved, the hearts of the unsaved, to do things beyond their control, things that are also not good.

    If we were to eat rotten fruit that had harmful, physical bacteria in it, our bodies would become sick. And likewise, if we were to eat fruit that contained a harmful, spiritual virus that could enter into our spirits, then our spirits could also become sick from such a thing, which is indeed what happened to mankind.

    Therefore trying to mend this actual, literal condition by trying to keep written laws, cannot possibly change this condition. Rather, one must have this condition changed by the supernatural birth of the Holy Spirit, he which comes into the sick hearts of men and removes this spiritual virus from our hearts, and then lives in our hearts himself, forever.

    This is the entire redemption of mankind, but can only be discerned within the Bible by the Holy Spirit.

    I pray you listen to the Spirit.

    God bless.

    [ August 09, 2002, 02:58 AM: Message edited by: Ruht ]
     
  3. mountainrun

    mountainrun New Member

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    Fortunately for all of us who would like to debate such verses as James 2:17 endlessly, James clarified it for us in the very next verse.
    His works evidenced his faith.

    John also dealt with the issue when he was discussing true versus false believers.

    =====
    First John 2:3. We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands.
    4. The man who says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
    5. But if anyone obeys his word, God's love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him:
    6. Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.
    ======
    This is the same thing that James said about faith and works with less confusion for works based salvation adherents.

    Those who are saved obey. Not perfectly, but we do the best we can. I am curious as always where those who say we are saved by not sinning would decide where one of us has sinned too much to be saved.
    Or maybe they could tell me if I am gettin close to their line.

    Jesus died for ALL sin, whether it's a little or a lot, accidental or intentional.

    Those who obey, like Paul, the chief of sinners, still commit sin.

    MR

    [ August 10, 2002, 02:51 PM: Message edited by: mountainrun ]
     
  4. Johnv

    Johnv New Member

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    Works is an expression of faith. If we're not putting our faith into action, we don't really have a true faith in Christ.

    A true faith in Christ is not just taking it into our hearts. It's taking it to our arms and legs as well.
     
  5. Ruht

    Ruht Guest

    The only way a person keeps the righteousness of commandments of God is in spirit, not in letter. And all saved do so in spirit.

    And the Bible says that those born of God do not commit sin.

    Have faith in God and get past the first principles of the oracles of God.

    God bless.
     
  6. Ruht

    Ruht Guest

    Our arms and legs will go where the Spirit leads us, not where our fear and self-righteousness leads us, if we are demonstrating true faith in Christ and are born of the Spirit.

    Our faith in Christ, not in works, is demonstrated by us not trying to work our way into heaven. For, those trying to work their way into heaven show their faith in works, not in Christ.

    God bless.
     
  7. Johnv

    Johnv New Member

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    Our arms and legs will go where the Spirit leads us, not where our fear and self-righteousness leads us, if we are demonstrating true faith in Christ and are born of the Spirit.

    Our faith in Christ, not in works, is demonstrated by us not trying to work our way into heaven. For, those trying to work their way into heaven show their faith in works, not in Christ.


    I agree with you of course. The point I was trying to get at was that as faithful Christians, we are called do good works. I know way too many people who use the "saved by faith and not by works" as an excuse to not have to do anything differently in their lives, with a "let God handle it Himself" attitude. All Christians are called to works by the Holy Spirit. To not answer the call is to deny the Holy Spirit.

    Anyway, I'm getting on a soapbox again, and I should probably step down, especially since I think I'm preaching o the choir ;) .
     
  8. lookbeyond

    lookbeyond Guest

    John 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. 3. Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. 4. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch, cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. 5. I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. 6. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. 7. If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. 8. Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.....14. Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.

    Revelations 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have RIGHT to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

    1 John 2:3 and hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. 4. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5. But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that are in him. 6. He that saith he abideth in him, ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

    Revelations 20:12. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

    We are saved from the grave, or in other words, death brought into the world by the transgression of Adam, was conquered by the atoning sacrifice of the Savior, which made possible the resurrection of all mankind! A free gift given of God! The spiritual death, or separation of man from the presence of God can only be conquered by our faith and keeping the commandments of God, thereby becoming enlightened! The greater our light and understanding of the things of God because of our obedience, the greater will be our reward on that judgement day when we all must stand before our Redeemer and give an accounting to Him of the choices we made in mortality! As we live the doctrines of Christ, so will we come to a knowledge that He is the author of our beliefs. John 7:16. Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me. 17. If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

    Through our faith and obedience to the commandments of God we can know the truth, and there is no other way! The greater the light within us, the less disposition we have to commit sin in our lives, requiring repentance and forgiveness from our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ!! [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  9. cotton

    cotton New Member

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    Just out of curiosity, what is legalism or legalist? Webster's says 'strict adherance to law'. Are there any definitions in theological books?
    Thanks,
    Kevin
     
  10. Carson Weber

    Carson Weber <img src="http://www.boerne.com/temp/bb_pic2.jpg">

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    Faith must be incarnate. It must manifest itself by working in love. Faith without works - Sola Fide - will not save. If it has not works, it will not justify, period. Faith with works will save one. Simply believing with all of your heart will bring you no closer to salvation unless it results in your response in love.

    Read the Gospel reading that was read in every Catholic church throughout the world today: the Parable of the Talents in Matthew 25. It speaks clearly about the nature of our salvation.

    God bless,

    Carson
     
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