faith

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by RON35951, Jan 20, 2005.

  1. RON35951

    RON35951
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    Where does Faith come from? If it is a gift from God then is this not Election? If it is from Man then salvation is earned, is this not so?


    Ephesians 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) 6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: 7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
     
  2. Drew

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    Good point. I think many misunderstand this concept. Additonally we have:

    "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." (Romans 10:17 KJV)

    There is the concept of the outward calling (that done by man preaching the gospel as we see in the context of Romans 10:17) and the inward calling of God himself as we read in:

    "It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me." (John 6:45 NASB)

    "Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. "I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.
    (Ezekiel 36:26-27 NASB)
     
  3. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest
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    You'd be wrong ron!

    In creating man, God put into man the capability and capacity to have faith, but gave man no faith!

    Where does man's faith come from? It comes From knowledge, knowledge about that which has not been realized, and that for which one has hope. No one hopes for anything they have no knowledge of. Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen

    Faith in God comes from hearing God's word which provides KNOWLEDGE of God upon which man builds faith which is the subsance of things hoped for.

    It is because we cannot see God, or see heaven or see eternal life that our faith based on the knowledge of them, provides the evidence of their existance.

    Interestingly, for our salvation, God requires nothing of us except faith in Him. He requires it of us, because He has no faith of his own. What does a being who knows all and sees all need of faith? No, God has no faith to give to man, but he does expect it of man.

    That brings us to your wrong assumption that faith is a work. A work by it's very definition requires expenditure of energy. Man expends no energy in the possession of faith! Therefore, Faith is not a work, it is a possession.
     
  4. rc

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    No man seeks after God Wes.. no not one... still haven't clarified that with me yet... but it destroys all the work you just typed up (with no scripture, I might add).
     
  5. Drew

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    Does not God generate faith in man?
     
  6. Wes Outwest

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    A prophesy.
    Do I need to presume that you believe that Jesus is God the Son? If not, then it will not surprise you to learn from Jesus himself, who it is that are Taught of God, meaning taught by God. The scene is Jesus in the Garden, Praying to the Father in Heaven. The fullfilment of prophesy:
     
  7. RON35951

    RON35951
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    Qouted from Wes: " Where does man's faith come from? It comes From knowledge, knowledge about that which has not been realized, and that for which one has hope. No one hopes for anything they have no knowledge of. Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen

    Faith in God comes from hearing God's word which provides KNOWLEDGE of God upon which man builds faith which is the subsance of things hoped for. "

    Wes according to your statement you believe that anyone that hears the Gospel will be saved. Iknow this is not your meaning. Please expound on this.

    What I am trying to get at is the source of saving faith.

    Qoute from Wes: "That brings us to your wrong assumption that faith is a work. A work by it's very definition requires expenditure of energy. Man expends no energy in the possession of faith! Therefore, Faith is not a work, it is a possession."

    If faith is a possession acquired from hearing the Word of God, then faith is a gift from God given through his Word. And since all who hear the Word do not come to saving faith, then the gift must be selective. Isn't this Election?
     
  8. Wes Outwest

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    Does not God generate faith in man? </font>[/QUOTE]NO, FAITH IN MAN comes from Hearing God's word. The Word of God contains no faith, it contains ideas, concept, instructions, Illustrations, History, Law, Prophesy, and eye witness reports, but NO FAITH! So if faith comes from hearing the word of God and the word of God contains no FAITH, how does faith come to man? It is through Knowledge that is contained in the Word of God. Knowledge in Man produces faith within man. Knowledge of anything can produce faith in that thing. So knowledge of God produces Faith in God.
     
  9. Drew

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    First, allow me to explain that I did not put the emphasis on 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' That emphasis is provided by the NASB and reflects that Jesus was quoting from the OT.

    Next, I agree that Jesus is God the Son. There is also God the Father and God the Holy Spirit. There must be an understanding of the Trinity here in the God the Father teaches (the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and also the Son). The emphasis here is that "Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father" will come to Christ ..."comes to Me."

    Your disagreement is with the scriptures, not me.
     
  10. RON35951

    RON35951
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    Wes, did you happen to notice John 17:9-10 in your above post?
     
  11. Drew

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  12. Wes Outwest

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    That is not the meaning I posted, but in accordance with your own understanding of the truth, it appears that is the meaning you received.

    What I say is that God made man, therefore all mankind, with the ability and capacity to believe, and Not one human who has ever lived did not have that ability and capacity. We all have faith in a variety of things. If we did not have faith in our cars we would never drive, if we did not have faith in airplanes we would never fly. If we did not have some semblance of faith in our fellow man, we could never be civilized. So we all have the capacity for faith. It is God's word that provides the knowledge of God so that we can have faith in God and that is what God wants in us, faith in him. He gives everlasting life to each and all of us who have faith in Him. Those who do not believe the word of God and do not develop faith in God are unworthy to have everlasting life according to God.
     
  13. Wes Outwest

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    Why Yes I did, and here is the rest of the story:
     
  14. Drew

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    Wes,
    I do not disagree that faith comes by hearing and hearing the Word of God. This is only half the truth. There's more:

    "We give thanks to God always for all of you, making mention of you in our prayers; constantly bearing in mind your work of faith and labor of love and steadfastness of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ in the presence of our God and Father, knowing, brethren beloved by God, His choice of you; for our gospel did not come to you in word only, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction;[/B. just as you know what kind of men we proved to be among you for your sake." (1 Thessalonians 1:2-5 NASB)

    Without God's intervention we would remain at emnity with him. We are slaves to sin because we are spiritually dead, spiritually discerned.
     
  15. Drew

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    Wes,

    In light of "God's Word", and that His Word proceeds from Himself, please explain your statement when you say "NO" to my question "Does not God generate faith in man?" Isn't your statement self-defeating?

    Also, please exegete the following passage:

    "But I said to you that you have seen Me, and yet do not believe. "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."
    (John 6:36-40 NASB)
     
  16. Wes Outwest

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    Yes, God made man, thus all mankind, each and all, independent, free thinking, free will, individual human beings. To each he gave a brain as part of their humanity. It is with that brain that man forms belief. Belief is based on knowledge, and perception. one man's belief is often "formed with persuasion from others" Parents form the beliefs of their children, Governments form the beliefs of their subjects, teachers form the beliefs of students, siblings form the beliefs of siblings, coworkers form the beliefs of coworkers, books form beliefs of readers, television forms the beliefs of viewers. Pastors form the beliefs of parishioners, etc., etc., etc.

    If you are reading the bible, and someone you greatly respect comes along and plants the seeds of doubt in you by telling you that the bible is all screwed up, YOU are suddenly influenced to doubt what you read, and you may simply quit reading the bible. Some friend that turned out to be. If a parent does not believe in God, or church, or religion, what do you think the chance is the child will believe in those things? About 80% against it. Generally it is true that we are a "product of our environment", that is, the influences that we grow up in greatly influence our adult beliefs.

    Does God intervene? Absolutely, but He does not force himself upon anyone with the exception of a few Noteworthy examples. The general population is not imposed upon by God. However, he does have HIS Elect that are manifested in Every Generation. Billy Graham was an elect of God for the seniors of this day, and there are many Pastors who are the elect of God for this day, in the manner that the hero's of the bible were the Elect of God in their day.

    Likewise, every generation has its detractors from the things of God! Larry flint and Hugh Hefner, are a couple that come to mind for the seniors of this day.

    I trust that helps your understanding.
     
  17. Drew

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    Yes, God made man, thus all mankind, each and all, independent, free thinking, free will, individual human beings.</font>[/QUOTE]Can you explain why Jesus says that we are slaves to sin or why Paul says "dead in your transgressions"? Your statements are philosphical and do not reflect scripture. God mad Adam free but he chose sin and thus died spiritually. Thus as death entered the world through one man...

    This is a misconception. I never said that God forces himself on anyone. I am saying that He enables us. He frees us from our slavery to sin. He regenerates us... He resurrects us from spiritual death... AND he puts His Spirit within us. He causes us to be "Born Again" as it states in Ezekiel 36:26.
     
  18. Wes Outwest

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    If my statements are "philosophical" and not scripture, you reveal that you do not know and understand scripture. If my statements are philosophical, and not scripture why would you "listen" to any explanation I might give of Jesus' and Paul's remarks? Why should I waste my time if you've got a pre conception of the nature of my explanations?
     
  19. Wes Outwest

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    BEEN THERE, DONE THAT! YOU refuse the truth of scripture because it does not suit you!
     
  20. ILUVLIGHT

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    Hi Drew;
    Faith is a work of God.

    Joh 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
    Joh 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

    How ever we are not saved inorder to believe we are saved because we believe. We trust Christ as a result of that belief. Yet trust is not a work but the results of the faith that is the work of God. Salvation is of Christ alone.
    May Christ Shine His Light On Us all;
    Mike [​IMG]
     

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