Faith

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by Bob Krajcik, May 19, 2005.

  1. Bob Krajcik

    Bob Krajcik
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    Faith

    All have not faith.

    2 Thessalonians 3:2 (KJV) And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith.

    Faith is given on behalf of Christ, that the sheep would believe.

    Philippians 1:29 (KJV) For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

    It is given unto us to believe by the power of God.

    Philippians 2:13 (KJV) For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

    If one comes to Christ, they come by faith.

    John 6:65 (KJV) And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

    Without faith it is impossible to please God.

    Hebrews 11:6 (KJV) But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

    If it be of ourselves it is not the gift of God.

    Ephesians 2:8 (KJV) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

    Do you agree, or disagree? If you do not agree with this, what Scripture do you use to show your rebuttal?
     
  2. UZThD

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    I basically agree.

    I am confused about your summary of Phil 1:29. Faith is given so that the sheep will believe..is that your meaning?

    Also I'm not sure that the referent of "that" in Eph 2:8 is faith. Still IMO God gives saving faith.
     
  3. massdak

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    i would have to agree
     
  4. OldRegular

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    Good post Bob.
     
  5. Bob Krajcik

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    Yes, my intent with Philippians 1:29 is that faith is given so that the sheep will believe.

    There is difference of understanding about the referent of “that” in Eph 2:8, but myself, I have settled that regardless if the referent is grace, saved, or faith, the three are all tied together, that if you have one you have them all.
     
  6. Bob Krajcik

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    UZThd:

    Your point about Eph 2:8 is a good one, and requires attention. I think it would have been more clear and more correct had I not referred to that verse, but instead settled on the other comments I made about faith. For Eph 2:8, even if grace, saved, and faith are linked together, the more clear meaning is that grace is the referent of "that."

    Ephesians 2:5 shows "by grace ye are saved" and Ephesians 2:8 shows "ye are saved through faith." As I understand, and think the Bible shows, all is the gift of God, given freely wholly by the will of God, and not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man.

    I would welcome your comments if you see something different. I am seeking to more fully understand these things.
     
  7. UZThD

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    ===

    Bob

    "That" (or 'this' or 'it') is a suitable translation of the singular, demonstrative, neuter adjective "touto."

    Some think that the adjective refers to "salvation" not "faith." (Robertson, Grammar,704).

    Some think that the adjective refers directly to faith (C. Hodge, Comm., 42).

    Some think the adjective refers to the complete clause. (EBC, 11:37).

    The arguments against taking "that" as referring only to faith are that

    1) the gender of "faith" is feminine but the gender of "that" is masculine. Usually the NT writers match the gender of an adjective to the noun it fits.

    2) to separate "of works" from "of you" ,in the opinion of some, does violence to the connection the apostle is making.

    On the other hand,

    1) the rule that a demonstrative adjective must agree with its antecedent has some exceptions.

    2) The adjective is closest to "faith," and, there is a rule that a pronoun or adjective will closely follow its antecedent.

    3) here Paul is stressing (IMO) that salvation from its start is of God and not of man.

    4) in the context of 3 above, as "faith" is often seen as an act of men, the apostle might be here emphatically saying that while men exercise faith , even, that very faith they express is of God.

    5) the interpretation that 'that' refers to "salvation in general," would seem to make 'that' tautological or repetitious, as Paul already said that salvation is by grace. One might think Paul would expand his idea by saying something exclusively about faith..

    6) if we take 'that' as referring to 'faith', as the gift of God, then, a complete antithesis is made from "salvation by works" since faith by men might be understood as a work by men. But if faith also is from God, then, there is quite clearly no room for boasting.

    7) Faith elsewhere is seemingly said to be the work of God even in this very Epistle (1:19).

    Consequently, I see some good reasons to take 'that' as referring to 'faith.' But I may be wrong.

    Bill
     
  8. UZThD

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    oops. re the first 1) above: 'that' is neuter, not masculine.
     
  9. Dr. Bob

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    A general "Faith" is common to all mankind.

    A salvific "Faith" is for the elect only, so that they will believe and call on the name of the Lord to be saved.

    The Bible distinguishes the two.
     
  10. Soulman

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    Posted by Dr. Bob: A salvific "Faith" is for the elect only, so that they will believe and call on the name of the Lord to be saved.

    With trembling bones I disagree with you Dr. Bob. Anyone can call upon the name of the Lord. The bible says"Whosoever".

    Anyone can obtain salvific faith. Romans 10:17
    So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

    Doesn't say if you are elect you can hear. It says faith cometh by hearing. Open invitation to ALL.
     
  11. Gregory Perry Sr.

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    FAITH is available to all men as incompassed in "whosoever will may come".Election does NOT mean that God CHOOSES some to go to hell and some to go to heaven.Election goes hand in had with,and is to be understood by the divine FOREKNOWLEDGE of God in that He knows from the foundation of the world(and before)who would and who would not come to saving faith in the Lord Jesus Christ(but WE don't know that so that is why we need to preach,teach,and spread the good news of the Gospel to as many as we can).Predestination must also be viewed in the same light.God's foreknowledge is the KEY.As to what the Bible teaches about faith and grace and salvation...ALL are the GIFT of a loving,merciful God.I won't guote the references since I don't have that kind of memory for them but this is what the Lord has revealed to me from my reading and study of His Word over the years.God's infinite foreknowledge is the key that makes the hand slip easily INTO the glove.JMO.God Bless You.(John Calvin would have had a "fit" over that one I think...lol).

    Greg Sr.
     
  12. UZThD

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    IMO foreknowledge , as in Rom 8:28, does NOT mean, as ARMINIUS claimed, foreseen faith.
     
  13. Gregory Perry Sr.

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    UZ...you are certainly entitled to your opinion.Mine is that Arminius wasn't right OR wrong about everything.....and neither was Calvin.There is some truth to be found in both positions...as well as some error.God is God....as as such He can and does "foresee" any and everything...be it faith...or the lack thereof.Sometimes we just have to accept the idea that we can't possibly understand all of God's thoughts,ways or methods of getting things done.There is no manmade system of theology available to man that will ever fully explain God and His infinite wisdom.His ways are unsearchable many times.We just need to keep telling people about Jesus until the trumpet blows.

    Greg Sr.
     
  14. UZThD

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  15. Artimaeus

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    I am glad that I read this thread. It caused me to do a little studying. I learned that that "that" that that poster quoted refers to saved.

    Agree or disagree you still must be impressed with using five straight "that"s in one sentence. :D
     
  16. USN2Pulpit

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    I'm impressed...
     
  17. Bob Krajcik

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    Bill:

    Thanks for taking the time to answer and show these thhings. I appreciate it, and have been challenged to study.

    For the most part I agree with what you have said, and have checked it with various sources. There remains difference by some that are close to the same understanding, and, personally I have not found a solid majority consensus among those of similar understanding, and I am not settled that I know how it is to be understood.

    Regarding “faith”, if it is the referent of “that” or not I am not sure. Myself, I do not think all have this faith, and I do think faith is created in man by the operation of the Holy Ghost, and so is not natural for man to have it, but this faith is instead by the supernatural work of God. As I understand, as the Father hath chosen us in Christ before the foundation of the world, we are granted faith by the operation of the Holy Ghost. The Father has chosen us, the Son dies for us, and by the Spirit we are born again. God’s wrath is revealed from heaven against all unrighteousness, but for those chosen Christ is the propitiation, averting God’s wrath. Grace appears precious when we first believe.

    Perhaps I am being to picky, I’m not real sure how the authors intended it to be understood, I think I know, but I’m not positive how the authors intended the 1689 London Baptist Confession to be understood, but 11.1 of that confession says, “...which faith they have not of themselves; it is the gift of God.” It seems really clear so I am not sure why I am not settled on it. That is from the following segment of the confession, and shows that it is not altogether a new idea among Baptists that faith itself is the gift of God.

     
  18. Bob Krajcik

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    I’m still picking at this, but I tend to think that “faith” is the referent of ‘that” and with that said, here is a few more words from a favorite author, commenting on Ephesians 2:4,5,8:

    Ephesians 2:4 (KJV) But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

    Ephesians 2:8 (KJV) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

     
  19. Bob Krajcik

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    The quote with "that" five times in a row is certainly impressive. [​IMG]
     
  20. Bob Krajcik

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    I remain convinced with what I said above. Further, with Ephesians 2:8 I am not able to find any argument to convince me "faith" is not the referent of the word that.
     

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