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fallacies of "non-cals"

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Luke2427, May 24, 2011.

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  1. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    Actually the Gospel is that Jesus died for the propiation of the Whole World, but that ALL those that His Father gives to the Son will be raised up, and NONE of those will be lost!

    Father gave His Son, draws sinners to Him, Son died, and Holy Spirit quickens convicts and allows those Father gave to have Eternal Life in Christ!

    Only difference is that you would see it as all could possible make that choice to receive Christ, due to general grace of God, while I would see it only able to save those whom God has specifically called unto eternal life in Christ, IE His elect!
     
    #21 JesusFan, May 24, 2011
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  2. Alive in Christ

    Alive in Christ New Member

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    JesusFan...

    Correct. The ones whom the Father gives to to Son are those who choose to place thier faith in Christ, rather than choose to reject Christ.

    Yes! Because those are the ones who chose faith in Christ, rather than rejecting Christ.

    God bless.
     
    #22 Alive in Christ, May 24, 2011
  3. TomVols

    TomVols New Member

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    If "world" means "entire world and everyone in it" in John 3:16, Calvinism isn't damaged one whit.
     
    #23 TomVols, May 24, 2011
  4. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    True. Which is why it confuses me when I run into so many "Calvinists" on the BB who attempt to argue otherwise. In his commentary of John 3:16, Calvin himself said, "Both points are distinctly stated to us: namely, that faith in Christ brings life to all, and that Christ brought life, because the Heavenly Father loves the human race, and wishes that they should not perish."

    Yet, I'm the one constantly railed upon as not understanding Calvinism???
     
    #24 Skandelon, May 24, 2011
  5. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    It appears to me that the phrase "those the Father gives the Son" is specifically in reference to the remnant of Israel who were given to Christ while one earth to be discipled and prepared to take the message of redemption to the rest of the world. His apostles were handpicked and called for a divine purpose as prophesied. In John 17 it seems Jesus makes the clear distinction between those given to him by the Father and those who believe through their message.
     
    #25 Skandelon, May 24, 2011
  6. Alive in Christ

    Alive in Christ New Member

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    Scandelon...

    That may well be. However...JesusFan seemed to be adressing the topic of salvation, so I responded accordingly.

    In the context of salvation, those who the Father gives to Christ would be those who choose to embrace Christ, rather than choose to reject Him.
     
    #26 Alive in Christ, May 24, 2011
  7. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    It does plenty with those who are more concerned with facts and reason than emotion.

    Emotional people will always be Arminians. If a calvinist thinks he is going to persuade an Arminian by politicking, he's got a lot to learn. In order to come to the truth on these matters one must stop making decisions based solely on FEELINGS and make them based on reason.

    The FACT is that it is pure idiotic to argue that KOSMOS means every single person in the world.

    The best thing to do is call it what it is. People who appreciate cold hard facts will be persuaded. Those who do not will NEVER be persuaded.
     
    #27 Luke2427, May 25, 2011
  8. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    You couldn't tell one way or the other...

    That sounds a whole lot like what I said...

    Who are you debating?

    The FACT is that it USUALLY does not. Therefore for you to say John 3:16 applies to every person in the world because it utilizes the word "kosmos" is ridiculous in the highest degree.

    No, you just argue it means every single person on earth when it suits you. It rarely- I mean VERY RARELY- ever does.

    Thank God for that much.
     
    #28 Luke2427, May 25, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: May 25, 2011
  9. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    No, I do not agree with that. I made a clear case against that in the very post to which you are responding. Did you not read it?

    "World" almost NEVER means even the MAJORITY of people on planet earth.

    Romans 1:8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.


    This does not even represent a half a percent of the human race.

    This is USUALLY the case with the word "kosmos".

    The whole WORLD knows this.


    I just proved unequivocally the contrary.

    Agreed. Let's do this more.

    Already dealt with that.

    World almost NEVER is inclusive of every single person on earth. It simply is not. For you to stubbornly argue that it is is for you to give evidence that you are not at all open to reason.

    You would convince a lot more of us Calvinists that you are not just absolutely bent against every aspect of Calvinism truth and reason be hanged- if you would admit here what is inarguably true. "World" doesn't usually refer to every single person on earth. Almost NEVER.


    Let's just start another thread. It is a very good and worthwhile topic. Notice I am able to admit when you have a good point. You should exercise the same here in this thread.
     
    #29 Luke2427, May 25, 2011
  10. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    That is a horrible hermeneutic. It is precisely that kind of hermeneutic that perpetuates this "non-cal" doctrine.

    It is not God's will that any of his people should perish. That is ALL that phrase is saying.

    II Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

    God is not slack concerning his promise to US not willing that any of US should perish.

    His promise is to US. And he is not going to tolerate that any of US (his people) should perish. No. Instead he is going to see to it that all of those he has elected will come to repentance.

    Honestly, that is invincibly plain.
     
    #30 Luke2427, May 25, 2011
  11. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    Sure, but why yield that point at all when it obviously does not?

    I know what you are saying. God can so love every single person in the world that he gave his only son that WHOSOEVER believes should not perish... and that WHOSOEVER is God's elect- and you're right- Calvinism still stands.

    But "world" there didn't just ALL OF THE SUDDEN start meaning every single person when it almost NEVER does any where else.

    It is truly a fatally flawed argument that Arminianism stands upon when they use the "all" and "whole world" passages as proof texts for their position.

    But emotional thinkers rather than rational thinkers will always be with us and so, we will always have Arminians.
     
    #31 Luke2427, May 25, 2011
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  12. Alive in Christ

    Alive in Christ New Member

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    Luke2427.....


    You've GOT to be kidding. Your kidding...right?

    :laugh::laugh:

    C'mon...stop it man, you're killin me!!



    Oh, and let me guess. My joking about this *proves* that I am one of those (((emotional))) non/cals.....right?
     
    #32 Alive in Christ, May 25, 2011
  13. convicted1

    convicted1 Guest

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    I'll take God at His word on this right here, Bro. Luke:

    2 Pet. 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

    Greek word used for "any": τις tis G5100

    Thayer's definition:
    1) a certain, a certain one

    2) some, some time, a while

    So He is not willing that any "certain one" "some" etc would perish.

    Greek word used for "all": πᾶς G3956 pas

    Thayer's definition:
    1) individually

    a) each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things, everything

    2) collectively

    a) some of all types


    So I think that "any" and "all" used in this very verse does in fact mean every single person upon the face of this earth. I am sure you will disagree....but welcome back, Bro. Luke!!

    i am I AM's!!

    Willis
     
    #33 convicted1, May 25, 2011
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  14. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    Well... now that you mention it...
     
    #34 Luke2427, May 25, 2011
  15. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    I dealt with this verse a few posts up.


    That is a horrible hermeneutic. It is precisely that kind of hermeneutic that perpetuates this "non-cal" doctrine.

    It is not God's will that any of his people should perish. That is ALL that phrase is saying.

    II Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

    God is not slack concerning his promise to US not willing that any of US should perish.

    His promise is to US. And he is not going to tolerate that any of US (his people) should perish. No. Instead he is going to see to it that all of those he has elected will come to repentance.

    Honestly, that is invincibly plain.
     
    #35 Luke2427, May 25, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: May 25, 2011
  16. Crabtownboy

    Crabtownboy Well-Known Member
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    Interesting contradiction here. How can God not tolerate "that any parish" while at the same time condemning others to parish by election?

    John 3:16 does not say, "For God so loved the world that he gave his only so so that the elect might be saved."

    If you had the power, which of your children would you condemn so that your own glory might be shown?

    Don't tell me God did it for his own glory as this makes God an egotistical monster.

    Your own posts have totally convinced me that your form of Calvinism is incorrect.
     
    #36 Crabtownboy, May 25, 2011
  17. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    It cannot be clearer.

    God is not slack concerning his promise to US but is longsuffering to US not willing that any should perish.

    How is it possible that you cannot see it?

    His promise is to HIS PEOPLE.

    He is not willing that any of his people should perish. So he is going to SAVE all of his people. He is not willing that any of his elect, the US of the passage, should perish. He is willing that all of US should come to repentance.

    The Bible could not be clearer on this point.
     
    #37 Luke2427, May 25, 2011
  18. Crabtownboy

    Crabtownboy Well-Known Member
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    He elects all, but some refuse to accept the election and thus are lost.

    This Bible is clear that God desires all, but your interpretation is incorrect.


    And, again, which of your children would you sacrifice to glorify yourself? This is what you say God does.

    I believe 'screaming' is against board rules. Right?
     
    #38 Crabtownboy, May 25, 2011
  19. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    I don't think screaming is possible in print. I assume we have access to that font so that we might use it. I have not seen any rules that say not to use the font provided for use.

    But then again I don't see how in "the world" you cannot see that that verse has NOTHING to do with every single person on earth and how you cannot see that that verse CLEARLY is speaking of God's people alone.

    And this "God elects everybody" business is just looney to me. What do you base that on? Rob Bells new book?
     
    #39 Luke2427, May 25, 2011
  20. Crabtownboy

    Crabtownboy Well-Known Member
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    Screaming is using large print. It has been considered such since the beginning of discussions on the Internet. It used to be called flaming.

    I see it from the Bible taken in its entirety and from the example of the life of Christ.

    You still have not answered my question about which of your children would you sacrifice for your own glory?
     
    #40 Crabtownboy, May 25, 2011
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