Fallacy of KJVOnlyism: providential preservation

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by LRL71, Jan 25, 2004.

  1. LRL71

    LRL71
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    The following statements were made on another topic. I copied them here to start another thread regarding the KJV-only 'doctrine of preservation'.



    KJV-onlyists (and some of their counterparts, those who hold to a "TR/Received" Greek text) make claims regarding their 'doctrine' of their 'divinely and providentially preserved, inerrant, infallible' Bible, and usually make end-runs on the timely and historical doctrinal statements regarding inspiration, inerrancy, and infallibility. In order to cover for their inadequacies regarding an 'inerrant' (or, inspired) KJV, they come up with their own 'doctrine' of preservation: God did a supernatural act of preserving the Bible text in the 'TR/Received Text' and the KJV reflects that 'inerrant/inspired' Greek text(s). Problem: where in the Bible do you find that God supernaturally preserved the Bible text (either in the Hebrew/Aramaic OT or the Greek NT)? According to 1 Corinthians 13:8-10, the act of 'perfection' (i.e. "that which is perfect" in the KJV, the rendering for 'to teleion' in Greek) ended with the NT canon, and the act(s) of supernatural prophecy, knowledge, and tongues ended at that time. John penned, under (theopneustos) inspiration, the book of Revelation and when "amen" was finished, the act of supernatural activity regarding the text of the Bible ended there. God did not supernaturally preserve nor did He providentially preserve the text of the Bible after the original copies were penned. Thus, we have copies-- and lots of them! All of the copies are prone to have errors in them. This fact undermines the KJV-onlyist argument of a 'providentially preserved' Bible, thus their doctrine of preservation is not able to be supported from Scripture nor from the extant copies (hence, the facts). Any view of the Bible which says that the KJV = perfect (inerrant or inspired) Bible is completely false. This is why KJV-onlyism is so divisive (and heretical), because it holds to an unbiblical view of the Scriptures.
     
  2. Anti-Alexandrian

    Anti-Alexandrian
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    In other words, THIS is what you are saying..
     
  3. Pastor Larry

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    I didn't see anything on that page that remotely resembled what was said here. That page was a copy of something a man said. The fact that you hold it up as an authority shows that men are you final authority, not God. God never said anything remotely resembling that list.

    You are inconsistent. You decry those who who you say have no final authority in God's word but the only thing you can cite for your proof is men, not God's word. The fact is that God did not say to believe what you believe. Everything God said leads us to not believe what you say.
     
  4. Charles Meadows

    Charles Meadows
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    NICE page Anti-Alexandrian!

    NOT!

    I see it comes complete with a link to the Balaam's Ass journal. While we're being anti-intelligence we might as well be anti Catholic and anti black as well! :(

    This page is a GREAT tool of witness!! [​IMG] Let's show the lost people that we're all fruitcakes and that Gos expects us to leave our brains at the door when we come to church.

    UGHHHH!!!!!!
     
  5. LRL71

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    Instead of directly answering my post, this (typical) KJV-onlyist answers with complete nonsense. Nothing to say about what the BIBLE says, Anti-Alexandrian??

    I should also add another point to my previous post regarding preservation. If God did a supernatural and providential act of preserving the Bible text (Hebrew/Aramaic & Greek), then the Charismatics' assertion that tongues is for today is also true. Think about this, do we honestly believe that tongues (whether or not the Charismatics practice tongues correctly or not is another debate) is something that God is supernaturally performing today?? I think not! This is another Scriptural proof (in I Cor. 13:8-10) regarding the completeness and perfection of the NT canon: it was perfect at the time it was written; inspired and inerrancy are only to be applied to the original autographs-- only! The extant manuscript evidence for the OT and the NT should show that we DO HAVE the complete text of the Bible, but through the science of textual criticism we should evaluate the manuscript evidence in order to come as close as humanly possible to ascertain the reading of the original autographs. Perhaps this struggle of scholarship is something God has designed for us so that we may continue to study diligently the Word of God. That's true biblical scholarship!
     
  6. LRL71

    LRL71
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    Omigosh, I died laughing with you! [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]

    So sad, but true........ :eek:
     
  7. robycop3

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    Problem those KJVOs have, is that they cannot PROVE a thing they say!
     
  8. Ed Edwards

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    Duplicate post, sorry, my bad.

    But it does go to show that God is
    NOT a single "poster" (KJVO)
    but a multiple "poster" (all translations),
    hoping to save as many as possible.

    [​IMG]

    [ January 25, 2004, 01:25 PM: Message edited by: Ed Edwards ]
     
  9. Ed Edwards

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    Obviously i'm not of
    The Alexandrian Cult nor do i subscrive to
    "The Creed Of The Alexandrian Cult".

    If have a firm, objective, physical
    FINAL AUTHORITY in each English Language
    translation that i can understand.
    In fact, there is NO VARIATION OF UNDERSTANDING
    betwen one English Language translation
    and another except as concieved BY SOMEBODY
    OTHER THAN GOD. God's message of love
    to us expressed in Jesus, the Christ, is
    uncorrupted save by perverse men and
    is available in all English Language
    translations.

    [​IMG]
     
  10. Refreshed

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    Lots of Baptists are anti-catholic church. Have been for a long, long time. It's hard to be pro-catholic church when they are killing your friends and family because they believe the bible and not some guy in a dress. Anti-intelligence cannot be equated with anti-catholicism.

    Please back up your statement regarding the anti-black attitude of the Balaam's Ass Journal with quotes. Racism is a serious charge, indeed, in today's climate.

    Maybe some people get intellectual pride and brains mixed up. Please leave your intellectual pride at the door when you go to church.

    Jason
     
  11. Refreshed

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    In our zeal to "out-do" the other side, sometimes we make unfortunate statements like the one above. It could very well be that comprehension was lacking in mind of LRL71.

    While I disagree with the link in question, it was quite comprehensible and intelligible, and decidedly not complete nonsense.

    Jason
     
  12. Refreshed

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    double-post

    Jason
     
  13. Refreshed

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    Several problems here. Do you or do you not believe that God preserved his words? I know many who use MVs who hold that the bible WAS preserved for us today SUPERNATURALLY (in the many mss we have available). There is disagreement on less than 2 percent of the texts BETWEEN THE TWO LINES OF GREEK TEXTS! We have over 5,000 mss and the best textual evidence for ANY BOOK EVER WRITTEN. We cannot even be sure we have close to the original text of Shakespeare's plays, let alone a more ancient document. May I suggest Josh McDowell's The New Evidence That Demands A Verdict to help in this area.

    Bottom line:

    THE BIBLE HAS BEEN PRESERVED FOR US WITH AN EXTREMELY HIGH-DEGREE OF ACCURACY. We can be sure we have the very words God intended for us to have. This is a miracle in preservation.

    You are wrong, and bordering on heterodoxy to say that we cannot be sure that we have the very word of God.

    Until one realizes the instances of disagreement are so small between the texts, and providential inspiration HAS occurred, it will be difficult to trust the bible and obey its words as the very word of God.

    It will never fail us, it will never cause us to err, we can trust our bibles implicitly and rebuke with vigor the idea and those that would promote it that we cannot. Just because we know a little Greek does not place us in authority over the biblical text. It has been translated through time and languages with such a high degree of accuracy that we cannot recognize anything but God's hand of preservation on the text.

    Jason
     
  14. Charles Meadows

    Charles Meadows
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    Refreshed,

    This sounds very Christ-like:

    I was born in the south suburbs of Los Angeles, California, which is African-American for sure.
    My early days of scholarship included a stint at 79th Street Elementary School in Los Angeles.
    That's hard core African! :(

    That's straight from the editor's bio on the Balaam's Ass Journal page.

    I don't have intellectual PRIDE but I do have some brains, which God gave me and expects me to use. The stuff I just quoted IS racist and very much unlike anything Christ would say!!

    Some of us "fundies" (and yes I'm one) should spend a little more time trying to emulate Christ and less time bashing anyone who is different. That particulr site is vehemently antiMV, antigay, antiCatholic etc.

    Besides, ANTI ANTI ANTI is not the gospel. Love thy neighbor - not his sin. [​IMG]
     
  15. robycop3

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    Something you said, Jason, jumped out at me from your last post: We can be sure we have the very words God intended for us to have. That's the whole point of His allowing translations of His words to be made!

    God created all languages to begin with, both those at Babel, and those which came later. He presented the first of His Scriptures to whoever wrote Job. Then He presented quite a few of them to Moses, who wrote them in proto-Hebrew, Egyptian, or whatever language he primarily spoke & wrote in.(Remember, he was highly-educated in Pharaoh's palace by the very best teachers in Egypt.) And God Himself wrote the Ten Commandments in a language readable by Moses.

    Was this the same Hebrew language used by Malachi or Paul? According to several encyclopediae, the oldest known extant example of written Hebrew is the Gezer Calendar, from C. 1000 BC, written in an old Semitic script somewhat different from the script of the Masoretic Texts. And some Jewish friends tell me that MODERN Hebrew, both written & spoken, came about largely through the efforts of one man, Eliezer Ben-Yehuda(1858-1922)who sought to revive the Hebrew language so all Jews throughout the world could have their own common language. It is NOT the written Hebrew of the Gezer Calendar.

    Point is, all the languages of the world have changed vastly since God finished presenting His Scriptures to mankind. And God has placed His word within almost all of them. The KJVO would have us remain in the past, having God's word only in a past form of our language. The Jews tell me the Hebrew of the Masoretic Texts is somewhat different from that of the Gezer Calendar, & if someone were to read aloud from that calendar exactly as written, that no ordinary Jew, no matter how proficient he/she was in current Hebrew, could understand it.

    Does God, who made all languages & changes them as He chooses, wish us to remain in the past far as His word goes? Not hardly.
     
  16. Refreshed

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    Maybe un-Christ-like, but not racist. Mere reference of African-Americans does not a racist make.

    I went to a school that was majority Hispanic when I was a kid. Does that mean I'm racist toward Hispanics to mention that? No, of course not. Racism must have two components, percieved superiority and antagonism toward those of a different race (I don't believe there are races, we all came from Noah's bloodline). Neither of those two conditions were met in that quote. You will have to do better than that.

    Jason
     
  17. Refreshed

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    I absolutely agree with you. Are you surprised? You shouldn't be because I am not KJV-only.

    What I was pointing out by my post is that LR71 does not believe we can be sure of the text behind the bibles we have. He says that there was no supernatural preservation. He says that there is no infallibility, he says there is no inerrancy. These beliefs are heterodox, as I stated above. Just because he is attacking the KJVO position does not mean he should get away with disseminating patently false and unbelieving information regarding the preservation of the word of God.

    Jason
     
  18. Forever settled in heaven

    Forever settled in heaven
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    true, a serious charge racism is; but i don't think it was directed at Balaam's Ass but more as an example of where faulty thinking cld lead.

    but serious as racism is as a charge, it doesn't compare to attributing God's Words to the devil, which is a hallmark of KJBOism.
     
  19. Charles Meadows

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    I'll tell you what I mean by those posts!

    Against whom does Jesus speak in the Gospels?

    The Pharisees mainly!! Why??

    They were like whited sepulchres - pretty outside but inside full of dead men's bones!!

    Kinda like alot of "Christians" today!!!

    I play fiddle and guitar in a little gospel band so I get to be in alot of churches and hear alot of different preachers. There is nothing more disheartening than to hear a minister rail for 45 minutes about the gays, the MVs, the kids with earrings, the Catholics, the Penetecostals etc. 45 minutes of spit flying, incorrect grammar, and ANGER!!

    THIS is why I am against KJVOism - not because I have a problem with anyone who has a particular preference for a translation - but because it is a thorn in the church to divide the brethren!

    I think that someone who spends his/her life hating and disparaging others but yet professes Christ may well one day hear Jesus say, "I do not know you!"

    Yes I am against that site because it is nothing but anger and hate as best I can see. :confused:
     
  20. Ed Edwards

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    Amen Brother Charles Meadows -- Preach it!!!

    [​IMG]
     

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