Falling away???

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tuor:
Only God's elect will answer the call.

Many are called, but few are chosen.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


My Bible says whosoever will. I will agree that once they make a decision they are the elect.

[ February 08, 2002: Message edited by: Kellisa ]

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tuor:
Or is it that they make the decision because they are the elect????

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If that isn't prideful, I don't know what is. I am just a sinner saved by grace because God made provision for my sin and I accepted that sacrifice. I made the decision and God elected me to be his child after I chose his will and way for salvation. It is free to all, not just a certain group of "elect" people that God predestined before the world. He predestined his Son to offer the sacrifice, but the sacrifice was for all.

Why even share the gospel if you belive people are automatically "elect". Who cares if you witness to them, makes no difference.

[ February 08, 2002: Message edited by: Kellisa ]

[ February 08, 2002: Message edited by: Kellisa ]

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kellisa:
So you are saying those who accept Christ as their Saviour are answering to a different call than the call given to all?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, different in type. I call people to repentance and salvation almost every week recently since I am preaching through 1 John. I can say "If you don't measure up to these evidences, you need salvation." The effectual call is the work of the Holy Spirit on the heart by which he causes someone to respond to the general call or the message preached.

My Bible says "whosoever will may come" and I believe that with all my heart. The question is, "Why "will" people come?" The answer is because God works in them to "will and to do his good pleasure" (Php 2:12) It is God that begins the good work (Php 1:6). Those who don't come, don't come because they don't want to. Their desires are in line with their nature.

[ February 08, 2002: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kellisa:
I am just a sinner saved by grace because God made provision for my sin and I accepted that sacrifice. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But you did this because God drew you to himself. You would not have done it otherwise. Furthermore, God did not elect you to salvation after you responded. I will challenge you as I challenged others: Show us a verse where election is predicated on belief. (Hint: There is none. In Scripture, election always precedes belief). If election followed belief, it would serve no purpose becuase you don't need to elect someone who has already chosen you.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Why even share the gospel if you belive people are automatically "elect". Who cares if you witness to them, makes no difference.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

We share the gospel because people are elect. God has chosen the preaching of his message to save his elect. There we preach because it makes a difference.

[ February 08, 2002: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Pastor Larry:


The effectual call is the work of the Holy Spirit on the heart by which he causes someone to respond to the general call or the message preached.

My Bible says "whosoever will may come" and I believe that with all my heart. The question is, "Why "will" people come?" The answer is because God works in them to "will and to do his good pleasure" (Php 2:12) It is God that begins the good work (Php 1:6). Those who don't come, don't come because they don't want to. Their desires are in line with their nature.

[ February 08, 2002: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The Holy Spirit also works on people's hearts who choose to reject Christ and remain in thier lost state. I have no doubt that the Holy Spirit does the work, but what you are saying is that some people will never accecpt Jesus because they are not predestined to. Philippians is also talking to a the church "a saved audience" and not the lost.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kellisa:
The Holy Spirit also works on people's hearts who choose to reject Christ and remain in thier lost state. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not effectually.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> I have no doubt that the Holy Spirit does the work, but what you are saying is that some people will never accecpt Jesus because they are not predestined to.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not only I but Paul, Peter, John, and even Christ himself.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Philippians is also talking to a the church "a saved audience" and not the lost.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It is showing that God works in people to will and to do as he pleases.

 

What exactly do you say to those that ask about salvation that you do not see as elected. What do you say to them, that there is no hope?

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tuor:
All salvation is based on election. We may not see it that way, but just because some don't want to believe it, doesn't mean it isn't how it works. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't think that answered my question. What do you say to those people. Do you simply tell them God's plan of salvation does not apply to them?

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tuor:
All salvation is based on election. We may not see it that way, but just because some don't want to believe it, doesn't mean it isn't how it works. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What I have read about John Calvin, there is no way I would ever accept any belief that he might have had about election. He was truly one of the crulest men I have ever read about. How any Christian could embrace his practices is beyond me.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kellisa:
What exactly do you say to those that ask about salvation that you do not see as elected. What do you say to them, that there is no hope?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't see people as "elect" or not.I have no way of knowing. I see them as part of all nations that I am commanded to make disciples of.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kellisa:
What I have read about John Calvin, there is no way I would ever accept any belief that he might have had about election. He was truly one of the crulest men I have ever read about. How any Christian could embrace his practices is beyond me.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As has been often stated here, this discussion is not about a man. Many try to make what Calvin said or did the issue, it not the issue. "Calvinism" has nothing really to do with the man. It is a shorthand description for what we believe about what the Bible teaches. Your argument is simply a diversionary attempt. The issue is what does Scripture say. These ideas that we are discussing were around long before Calvin. It was simply his name that got attached to them.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Pastor Larry:


I don't see people as "elect" or not.I have no way of knowing. I see them as part of all nations that I am commanded to make disciples of.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But you said you do have a way of knowing, you say if they respond to God's word then they are a part of the elect. Obviously you don't see all people as being commanded to make disciples of if you already have it in your head that some are predestined to accept Christ and others are not. I don't understand how the Bible tells us that Christ died for all and yet you turn it around and say that he only died and rose again only for the elect.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kellisa:
But you said you do have a way of knowing, you say if they respond to God's word then they are a part of the elect. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If they respond with saving faith and repentance then yes, they are a part of the elect. HOwever, I do not know beforehand whether or not they will respond. Furthermore, I do not know whether they will respond on the first, second, third, tenth, hundredth, or thousandth confrontation of the gospel. The identification of the elect, in this life, is a secret.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Obviously you don't see all people as being commanded to make disciples of if you already have it in your head that some are predestined to accept Christ and others are not. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you will read my above post again, you will see what I said. I said that I see all people as being a part of the command to make disciples out of. It is not "in my head" that some are elect and some are not. It is in my head that this person is unsaved and I should bear witness to them of Christ.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I don't understand how the Bible tells us that Christ died for all and yet you turn it around and say that he only died and rose again only for the elect.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

First, I did not say that he only died and rose again for the elect. In some senses, Christ died for all without distinction. However, it is clear from Scripture that his death was efficacious only for the elect. Second, as has been demonstrated here on numerous occasions, all does not always mean all without distinction. Sometimes it means all of a particular group or class.

 

This thread is long and veering off topic. Later today I will close it. Feel free to make your last comments. Another thread can be started on a particular issue here if someone desires.

 

Can someone believe that they are saved and yet not end up in heaven? If you answer "yes", then how can a person have eternal security while still alive on earth?

 

S.

Why don't you start another thread with that one? It is a little bit off topic and I am going to close this one down.

Larry