Falling From Grace

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by tyndale1946, Feb 7, 2003.

  1. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946
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    Simple questions... According to scriptures can you lose your eternal salvation?... If you did something to get I would say you can but if you did nothing to get it how can you?... If you can then when the declaration was made that Jesus would save all his people... Can you be his people one minute and cease to be his people the next... Can you go from a sheep... to a goat... to a sheep... to a goat... to a sheep... Brother Glen :confused:
     
  2. romanbear

    romanbear
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    Hi Tyndale;
    If we can't loose our salvation then why is it even mentioned in the Bible? was it put there to deceive?
    Romanbear
     
  3. romanbear

    romanbear
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    Hi tyndale these are just some of the scriptures that I was talking about
    Romans11:17-22
    Mat 18:22-35
    If what these say aren't so, then why are they even there
    Romanbear
     
  4. Me2

    Me2
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    Once you have been buried with christ.

    It is impossible. yet once you start down the path of sanctification, your faith will be tried.

    falling from grace describes those who refuse to die to the flesh.

    Having determined that living by the law is sufficient.It allows them to remain in control of their own will..
    In effect, refusing to declare Jesus as Lord.

    saved yes..they are dead "in christ"..

    but they are not a member of the elect until they are tried again by God through dying to their flesh...and once again choose whether Jesus is to be lord of their will...or not

    and i would agree mat 18:23 is correct as describing this conclusion. a more general statement about all who are judged and whether they become a member of the elect...or not.

    Me2
     
  5. Frogman

    Frogman
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    So before the results can be tallied God has to recount?

    Does this mean heaven (the abode of God) is in Florida?

    Bro. Dallas
     
  6. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946
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    Me2... What :confused: ... Run that by me again!... Where is the Grace?... Brother Glen :rolleyes:
     
  7. Primitive Baptist

    Primitive Baptist
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    In Romans 11, Paul is not speaking of falling from grace in the sense that the Arminians make sense of it. Paul is addressing the elect Gentiles whom it has been granted to keep the Gospel church. Notice in verse 17 that SOME of the branches, that is, the non-elect Jews, were broken off. In other words, if the Gentiles abuse the blessing of the Gospel church state, God will take it away from them. It was taken from the Jews, but there are still saved Jews. However, the kingdom was taken from the Jews GENERALLY.

    Matthew 18 is not referring to the forgiveness of sins respecting justification in Christ, but in time. We are to confess our sins, and God will forgive us our sins. Without the forgiveness of sins we cannot have fellowship with God. Our position in Christ never changes. Jesus took away my sins at Calvary, and as far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed my transgressions from me! (Psalms 103:12) I commit sins, and I must confess them to God in order to obtain forgiveness and restore fellowship. I pray that He will direct my ways to walk in His statutes (Psalms 119:5) because without Him, I can do nothing (John 15:5). I do not trust in my own arm to keep me from the wiles of the devil and the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life.

    "Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD." (Jeremiah 17:5)

    Arminianism, Conditional Time Salvation, ad nauseam...I will trust the one who saved me to save me in the present time and forever. Do you think God saved you by sovereign grace and gives you up to your own "free will" after being born again? God forbid!

    [ February 07, 2003, 11:06 PM: Message edited by: Primitive Baptist ]
     
  8. Me2

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    Tyndale,

    I see sanctification a process of increasing a believers wisdom and understanding.

    from heb 5:12-6:2..and 1 Joh 2:12-14
    babe, child, young man and father

    "falling from grace". or the discontinuation of this process is under question.

    when we are initially saved..we dont know even christ. God the father imputes righteousness to us.
    clue..our eyes and ears are open to receive wisdom and faith to accept it. we are already spiritually dead. yet, God the father allows us to recognuze this by introducing us to the law..

    We try, we fail.we recognize the need of anothers successful attempt at conquering the law.

    THEN we are introduced to christ..initially as our savior..our christ..our propitiator.

    salvation cannot be refused..its imputed by the father. we only learn or its order and function. we are an adopted child. and we have to learn what that means.

    as you see we are a babe in christ..we are placed into the death and burial of christ. the law serves as killing the flesh to our own will. it will serve this until we recognize fully that we are truly spiritually dead...all of our attempts will become futile.

    your question is when, or if this process can be twarted ?

    (within this process as im understanding it)

    I stated yes..between the child and young man stage as the child is being tried by God..as they refuse to allow the law, or their own will of their flesh to become completely destroyed. they discover ways to lye to themselves and upsurp the very purpose of the law. For the law is designed to kill them and their attempts of living by them.

    can you be more specific of your question ?

    Me2

    [ February 08, 2003, 11:03 AM: Message edited by: Me2 ]
     
  9. Primitive Baptist

    Primitive Baptist
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    ye are fallen from grace; that is, either from that grace which they professed to have; for there might be some in these churches, as in others, who were only nominal Christians, and formal professors; who had declared they saw themselves lost and undone sinners, destitute of a righteousness, and professed to believe in Christ alone for righteousness and strength, but now trusted in themselves, and in the works of the law: or from the scheme of grace in the whole of man's salvation, which will admit of no mixture of works; either it is one or the other, it cannot be both; wherefore by their taking on the side of works, they showed that they had entirely dropped the scheme of grace: or else from the Gospel of the grace of God, from whence they were removed, through the influence of false teachers; particularly the doctrine of free justification by the grace of God, through the righteousness of Christ; which was entirely set aside by their seeking to be instilled by the works of the law; and from this they might be said to be fallen, who were on such a bottom.

    -Dr. John Gill, D. D.
     
  10. Me2

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    These stages are outlined in the OT tabernacle template. As is the blueprint "in heaven"

    the outer court of the tabernacle represents the child stage.
    the inner court represents the young man stage.
    and the holy of holies represents the father stage.

    there is a trial (tribulation) between the child and young man stage. or else one is not permitted to enter into the tabernacle veil.(heaven)
    there is another trial (great tribulation) between the young man and the father stage.

    the first trial of the child results in one claiming Jesus is lord or they are rejected.
    (I never Knew you) which can be a temporary pause or fall from grace, or one which is permenant.

    but yet "etenal salvation" of the failed child who refuses to accept Jesus as lord does not constitute being unadopted by God. yet their work within the family is used for another purpose..
    they sarve as vessels of wrath to spur the children of mercy to jealousy of the things of God.

    So..what i was trying to say was falling from grace is different from losing your eternal salvation.

    which losing your eternal salvation is impossible.

    but yet falling from grace is HIGHLY POSSIBLE.

    remember the statement.."many called,few chosen" ?

    Me2
     
  11. romanbear

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    Hi Me2;
    If you haven't been justified and a bus runs over you and kills you. Will you go to heaven, or Hell?
    Romanbear
     
  12. romanbear

    romanbear
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    Hi P.B.
    I agree we don't work our way to heaven.and we don't do works in order to keep our salvation.we do Gods will out of the Love and commitment we have for Him.At least I do.How ever one who does not allow the Holy spirit to live through him and bears no fruit. Will be cut out of the vine.But on the same hand if some one is saved and never has the opportunity to serve the Lord ("as the thief that hung on a cross next to Christ")is still saved.
    Romanbear
     
  13. Me2

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    the resurrection is not for the just only..

    it is called the resurrection of the just and the unjust.

    within the scheme of being saved by faith.

    the resurrection is spoken about the living..

    and after we die...well, lets hope God is just.

    in other words all have been placed in the death of Christ. Some didnt have the opportunity to realize that while they were alive.

    another follow up question should be:

    why are believers challenged to be processed through a system of sanctification.

    and as a young man is qualified to be a member of "the elect"...What is their purpose ?

    and is their purpose for here on earth, or when they are in heaven...possibly in the next age to come ?

    Me2
     
  14. Frogman

    Frogman
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    Do you mean all the elect are alive in Christ and that some do not realize this in their lifetime?

    If so...what about Romans 8.14-16

    "For as many as are led by the Spirit of God,
    they are the sons of God. For ye have not
    received the spirit of bondage again to
    fear: but ye have received the Spirit of
    adoption whereby we cry, Abba, Father. The
    Spirit itself beareth witness with our
    spirit, that we are the children of God."

    and vss. 26-27 also. Scripture seems to teach that the children of God will have this revealed to them.

    God Bless.
    Bro. Dallas
     
  15. Me2

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    The question referred to was referencing the death of a believer before they realize or understand that they have been justified.

    when God opened the eyes and ears of an adopted son or daughter..they received faith also. they were placed into the death and burial of christ.

    they believer didnt know or comprehend this.
    the next step would be..JUST LIKE ADAM..choosing whether they would die to self or attempt to live by works of the law. JUST LIKE ADAM..we all Fail.

    we have been placed into the death of christ..and still we do not know this. the law is doing its thing..choice by choice..we realize that following God and his law..we cannot please God.

    Our heart is being continually convicted of the holy Spirit..Satan is continually accusing us of our failures....then God introduces us to Christ..our savior..our propitator..our sacrifice.

    We never had a choice whether we would accept or deny christ as our savior..it is a matter of understanding what is happening.

    Its a process..we might not realize it but we all go through the same process. Everyone is treated equally.

    Even if we fall from grace..the holy spirit is there convicting and teaching us. were children of God.

    the process of sanctification is always moving..forwards or backwards.

    Now the question of election..
    the election are a group of chosen people..first they have successfully passed the trials of God by dying to self and accepting Jesus Christ As their Lord..Final...Total Sovereignty..He's the boss.
    Im nobody..its all of him and none of me.

    We're all the same..the spirit is teaching us..all we do is accept what is and be willing to comprehend.

    What does the bible say..no one can say Jesus is Lord..But By the Holy Spirit...Thats a Fact.

    In OT Tabernacle speach..you can enter into the inner tabernacle..you have been anointed ans sanctified to enter...the doorway into heaven.

    and your name cannot be blotted out of the book of Life. You are now a member of the overcomers.the sons of God, The Ambassadors of Reconciliation.

    being dead in christ..means you are under the law. the law is your schoolmaster. Until you recognize or understand that Jesus Has Risen From the dead. Can you also Recognize that He is Lord..Over the Curse of the Law...Over Death.

    Recognizing That Jesus Is Lord Requires wisdom and understanding. Of which God Himself Tries You or Puts your faith to the Test. God Himself approves or Disapproves of this change in level of knowledge and your position in christ. If Approved at this point..then you are alive in Christ...not before.

    You will now comprehend being a member of the Elect.

    concerning romans chapter 8 is speaking to children growing yet not tested their faith through trials..wisdom is being given...next is for them to be tried...BY FIRE. or putting their faith to the test..

    heres a simple clue..look at all the references to Christ..and not to the LORD.

    usually the reference to lord or jesus or christ will give you as a clue to who the statements are being directed to.. as comparing rom 6:11 or 7:25 to 8:10, or 8:11 or 8:17.. the references to jesus as Lord compared to him being Christ.

    or speaking to children compared to speaking to young men or fathers.

    theres a difference of crying "abba father" compared to crying "LORD Jesus".

    in 1 John..Young men are now ready to put on the armor of God..To fight the Devil...While the children are fighting the flesh or self.

    the process is not over after one declares jesus is lord..OH NO..there more enemies to fight.

    the world flesh and the devil..or at least thats the story of revelations...its the process of sanctification of a believer.

    OK Rambled enough
    Me2
     
  16. romanbear

    romanbear
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    Hi Me2;
    If I understand what you are saying it sounds like even Calvinism is devided against it self.
    Romanbear
     
  17. Me2

    Me2
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    romanbear. Divided in what sense?


    the discriptor Ive laid out about the process of sanctification are all in scriptures.

    the same as "falling from grace".


    Me2
     

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