False Teachings

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by steaver, Mar 25, 2016.

  1. steaver

    steaver
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    What I don't comprehend, and maybe our Catholic friends can somehow explain this for me, is why a Christian would want to be a part of a "church" in which it's highest teachers are clueless to the most very basic, fundamental and biblical Christian doctrines such as no one will be saved apart from receiving Jesus Christ as Lord God and the Only Saviour of mankind.

    Fox News today had on a Cardinal from New York, Timothy Dolan. The subject was this young Mormon missionary man (19) who was injured in the latest bombing and how he was still positive and faithful to his "faith". Dolan in his remarks said this young man was "doing the works of God". Are these Cardinals and Bishops really that clueless as to think Mormonism is doing the works of God? Mormonism is anti-Christ, dragging more unsuspecting lost folks into their clutches day by day.

    Secondly, on the same topic of "faith", Dolan declared the Jewish people are our brothers and sisters. These Catholic leaders believe and teach that the only thing that is needed to justify ourselves to salvation is to be "faithful" to whatever religion you choose to follow.

    Mormons believe God use to be a man, this is anti-Christ, no born of God (a requirement for salvation) believer would believe such a thing. Judaism rejects Jesus Christ as Saviour, any Jewish person practicing Judaism will not be saved and is not our brothers and sisters as spoken of in the context of "faith".

    This anti-Christ false teaching is rampant throughout the leadership of the Catholic church, all the way to the Pope. So why would a Christian want to have anything to do with these churches which teach such heresies?
     
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  2. utilyan

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    Well my question to you is why would a Christian want to be part of a sinless perfect church filled with perfect people?

    If you only love those who love you what good is that? A doctor is for sick people.

    Jesus Christ himself is of the Jewish faith, we Catholics consider ourselves the full and complete Jews through Christ.

    Despite calling them children of the Devil and indeed Anti-Christ in so far as to kill him later Jesus says of pharisees:
    Matthew 23
    1Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to His disciples, 2saying: “The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the chair of Moses; 3therefore all that they tell you, do and observe, but do not do according to their deeds; for they say things and do not do them.

    In other words Jesus recognizes the authority the Pharisees held. He didn't say well they are false religion I'm starting my own, don't do what they say follow me. You won't find anywhere in scripture explaining the authority of the chair of Moses it is a tradition one that Christ adhered to.

    Jesus never pointed at another's faith and said they are in the wrong spot. Don't you think that's rather a important detail?

    We teach the parable of the Good Samaritan. For you to be consistent you would have to teach the Damned Samaritan.

    Here we have Paul, STUDYING pagan religions, reconciling Pagan scripture to point to God. And he found one that fits. He states that they worshipped his God before he himself proclaims.
    He says that Their PAGAN scripture is correct, that they are the children of God.


    Acts 17
    22So Paul stood in the midst of the Areopagus and said, “Men of Athens, I observe that you are very religious in all respects. 23“For while I was passing through and examining the objects of your worship, I also found an altar with this inscription, ‘TO AN UNKNOWN GOD.’ Therefore what you worship in ignorance, this I proclaim to you. 24“The God who made the world and all things in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands; 25nor is He served by human hands, as though He needed anything, since He Himself gives to all people life and breath and all things; 26and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation, 27that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; 28for in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, ‘For we also are His children.’ 29“Being then the children of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and thought of man. 30“Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent, 31because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead.”



    "fundamental and biblical Christian doctrines such as no one will be saved apart from receiving Jesus Christ as Lord God and the Only Saviour of mankind."

    The only place I found that formula in the bible is when Satan tempted Jesus to kneel and worship him and then he will give him the kingdom of heaven.

    Jesus never said worship me and I will reward you, Satan did.
    Why would anyone want to take Satan's method and put a Jesus name tag on it?

    I have to believe I am totally misrepresenting your position, I know you love Jesus. Jesus himself says if you don't receive his commands you cannot receive him.

    I want to hear what Jesus Christ says:

    John 3
    3Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
    4Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born, can he?” 5Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

    16“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

    36“He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”


    The word believes here has obedience in it. That's why the opposite is "not obey".

    Only believers obey, Only those who obey believe.


    Luke 10
    25And a lawyer stood up and put Him to the test, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?” 26And He said to him, “What is written in the Law? How does it read to you?” 27And he answered, “YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND; AND YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.” 28And He said to him, “You have answered correctly; DO THIS AND YOU WILL LIVE.”




    Its very important to point out what is the Catholic view on one's own life eternal or not.
    I'm saying this because there are people who value SALVATION their LIFE over everything else.

    So if God commands feed your dog, well.....there no salvation in it.....ill just pass.

    We don't do this. We will feed the dog......Even on PENALTY rather then reward.

    Matthew 16
    24Then Jesus said to His disciples, “If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me. 25“For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it; but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it. 26“For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world and forfeits his soul? Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul? 27“For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and WILL THEN REPAY EVERY MAN ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS.


    We do good works. FOR FREE. If God were to offer me salvation for doing good works I would refuse it. He gets that for free. I feel taking any reward for it , would be like spitting on him.


    John 14

    15“If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.

    That's all he had to say. There is no heaven or salvation greater. We cannot be bought.

    I can hop in hell with greater joy then anyone in heaven as long as I love Jesus Christ.


    When your eyes are on Christ it doesn't matter if he hands me something sweet or poison, cause I know it comes from my friend someone I love.


    John 14
    21“He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will disclose Myself to him.”




    Steaver,

    You're a good person, good heart. Don't need to be catholic. I hope you become best of what you are.

    A lot of these differences are a bunch of knick-knacks over Faith, Obedience, and Love. If you can nail one perfectly it has to include the other two.


    A good Catholic aims to be a Saint. A position that transcends even the highest hierarchy of titles. They might not be the council but they can be the Jedi and God's Loose Cannon. There are nuns who've made popes tremble in fear.

    If God allows for a Saint's superiors to all be devils and demons its because God trusts him that much, Likewise the Saint trusts God so much he will stay where God put him come hell or high water, against all odds, even often against just as many Angels as Demons. A Catholic's biggest problem is often a Catholic. Himself if he's wise.
     
  3. steaver

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    Greetings Utilyan,

    Not sure why you posted this. Has nothing to do with my OP. Not talking about being sinless ot sinless churches, no one is sinless. Talking about the Christians staying in churches with false teachings on the fundamentals of the faith found in Jesus Christ. .
     
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  4. steaver

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    There is no "in other words" needed to understand the passage. You say "Despite calling then children of the devil"? Children of the devil is what they were because Jesus clarified later in other passages that they did not believe He was the Son of God and indeed set out to kill Jesus. The Jews religion was void of submission to God's provisions for eternal life. They twisted God's Word and in many ways ignored it in favor of their own traditions. Jesus declared, "Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it." (John 8:44)
     
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  5. steaver

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    Indeed Jesus did, as I just posted above. The Pharisees were "in the wrong spot". They were not being saved as they were currently in unbelief and under the wrath of God. If any of them were to change their position and believe on Jesus Christ their "spot" would change from death unto life. "He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him." (John 3:36) Yes, this is a very important detail!
     
  6. steaver

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    This is incorrect. they are ONLY the "children of God" in the context of Creation. The KJV makes this distinction by translating this as "offspring of God" so as not to confuse this with being a child of God through faith alone in Jesus Christ. The Scripture makes it clear that one is either a child of God through faith in Jesus Christ or one is a child of the devil with the wrath of God remaining on them.

    It seems as though you are advocating that all people of all religions having a sincere faith in a God is going to be "ok" saved. The NT is all about drawing distinctions between the lost and the saved. No faith in Jesus Christ=No Salvation.
     
  7. steaver

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    With all due respect, I don't see how you can miss it!

    "He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him." (John 3:36)

    "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." (John 14:6)

    "Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved." (Acts 4:12)

    "He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." (John 3:18)

    Just a few of dozens......
     
  8. utilyan

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    Its simple. You are asking Catholics:

    "why a Christian would want to be a part of a "church" in which it's highest teachers are clueless to the most very basic, fundamental and biblical Christian doctrines such as no one will be saved apart from receiving Jesus Christ as Lord God and the Only Saviour of mankind."

    If I have the proper view its my duty to correct my superiors. I gave you an example where Jesus' time the superiors of the church are in error. Jesus does not ditch them.

    2nd portion of my answer is aimed at your assertion "no one will be saved apart from receiving Jesus Christ as Lord God and the Only Saviour of mankind"

    Luke 6
    46“Why do you call Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say?

    Some folks don't care to do what Jesus says.

    Some do it for salvation's sake not for the motives Jesus Christ teaches.

    Matthew 7
    22“Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’


    Show me in the bible where Jesus says KNEEL before me, Worship me, call me lord and savior and I will save you.


    I can think of about 10 verses off the bat where he tells you to get on the ball. You can't provide one verse.


    If you believe the bible then you would believe what Jesus Christ says to do. Some folks claim to believe in SOLA SCRIPTURA, I wish they did.


    Jesus shows up to teach us to drive a car.

    Jesus announces believe in me and have faith in me and you will drive a car.

    We are both good and agree.

    So one of us asks, what do I have to do to drive a car?

    Jesus explains well you have to turn your key here ok, put it in drive, step on the gas there to make it go.

    I would agree with Jesus here. But some folks here would swear that's not how to drive the only way is to believe Jesus and faith in him. That's crazy.

    I can literally write out the command of Christ word for word, what he says to do. And some folks will choke first before repeating what he said to do. Namely love God, love neighbor, to follow his commandments.
     
  9. steaver

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    The OP is about the false teaching that one does not have to believe on Jesus Christ to be saved. This is fundamental to being truly a born of God Christian. One cannot reject Jesus Christ as Saviour (as does Judaism) and still be saved.
     
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  10. steaver

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    Does Jesus command people to believe on Him or else be condemned?
     
  11. steaver

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    With your request you are inferring that the bible does not teach that a person should KNEEL before Jesus, should Worship Jesus, should call Jesus Lord, or should call Jesus Savior.
     
  12. utilyan

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    We can agree here, but the opposite of believing is NOT OBEYING. Believing on him means more then acknowledging his existence, he was telling folks looking right at him! How are they going to deny he exists?


    1 Corinthians 11
    1Be imitators of me, just as I also am of Christ.


    John 13
    15“For I gave you an example that you also should do as I did to you.


    1 Peter 2
    21For you have been called for this purpose, since Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example for you to follow in His steps,


    Jesus Christ is my example. You didn't see his minimum requirement being to grovel and worship another man to be saved. Jesus Christ Loved God and Loved his neighbor.


    John 14
    15“If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.


    That's all he had to say, didn't even have to bribe me with eternal life. I love God for free. You can keep salvation.
     
  13. utilyan

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    That's nothing. We can turn it up a notch. You can give your whole life.

    1 Corinthians 13
    3And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing.

    In everything you say, That tiny tiny ingredient called love is what I'm looking for. Love God and love your neighbor.


    1 Timothy 1

    5But the goal of our instruction is love from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith.


    The goal ain't just believing nor just faith.


    The minute you mention love, you have me beat.

    If you don't mention Love or explain how its implied in belief or faith, it is useless trash.

    2If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.
     
  14. steaver

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    "He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name. Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." (John 1:11-13)

    "Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." (John 3:3)

    "He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." (John 3:18)

    "He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him." (John 3:36)

    "Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved." (Acts 4:12)
     
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  15. steaver

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    Brother, you are way off the OP topic. I totally agree that a true believer obeys Jesus' commandments, even though not perfectly. The OP is about Catholic leaders including faiths such as Judaism and Mormonism as "brothers and sisters" in the context of salvation. Judaism flat out rejects Jesus Christ, they stand condemned unless they change their "spot".
     
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  16. steaver

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    Again, the OP is about a Cardinal including Judaism and Mormonism as doing the works of God. Judaism rejects Jesus Christ and Mormonism preaches "another Jesus". Why does your church leaders talk as though they are like minded in faith. Should your leaders be giving them a false hope? Do you understand your leaders are loving them straight into hell by not persuading them and yes even begging them to reject their false religious beliefs and begin a personal relationship with Jesus Christ as Lord and God?
     
  17. utilyan

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    Luke 12

    47“And that slave who knew his master’s will and did not get ready or act in accord with his will, will receive many lashes, 48but the one who did not know it, and committed deeds worthy of a flogging, will receive but few. From everyone who has been given much, much will be required; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more.


    Luke 9
    46An argument started among them as to which of them might be the greatest. 47But Jesus, knowing what they were thinking in their heart, took a child and stood him by His side, 48and said to them, “Whoever receives this child in My name receives Me, and whoever receives Me receives Him who sent Me; for the one who is least among all of you, this is the one who is great.”
    49John answered and said, “Master, we saw someone casting out demons in Your name; and we tried to prevent him because he does not follow along with us.” 50But Jesus said to him, “Do not hinder him; for he who is not against you is for you.”
    51When the days were approaching for His ascension, He was determined to go to Jerusalem; 52and He sent messengers on ahead of Him, and they went and entered a village of the Samaritans to make arrangements for Him. 53But they did not receive Him, because He was traveling toward Jerusalem. 54When His disciples James and John saw this, they said, “Lord, do You want us to command fire to come down from heaven and consume them?” 55But He turned and rebuked them, [and said, “You do not know what kind of spirit you are of; 56for the Son of Man did not come to destroy men’s lives, but to save them.”] And they went on to another village.



    Jesus Christ taught the GOOD SAMARITAN. He did not teach the damned Samaritan. If the Samaritan was proper faith, he would just be the good Christian.


    If Jesus Christ were to tell that story again today, it would be the GOOD ATHIEST or the GOOD MUSLIM.
    Samaritans happened to be the most hated at the time, they defiled the holy of holies.


    Philippians 2

    3Do nothing from selfishness or empty conceit, but with humility of mind regard one another as more important than yourselves; 4do not merely look out for your own personal interests, but also for the interests of others. 5Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,

    Jesus didn't think his being God was paramount.

    John 14

    11“Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me; otherwise believe because of the works themselves.

    He could have said believe me OTHERWISE you are Toast. But that's a far cry from the verse above.


    You can teach a Jew and a Mormon to love God and love their neighbor.

    As far as why they don't believe Jesus is God, I rather tack that on as my fault for not setting a better example and we pray for them.

    If I say to myself I truly have God on my side and YOU DON'T, then I have NO EXCUSE for setting a poor example.
     
  18. steaver

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    Nowhere will you find Jesus stating that being a "good" person will Justify unto Salvation. Jesus came to "save" the "lost". Millions of "good" people are still very lost and Jesus made it perfectly clear as to why they are lost.

    Jesus never taught the Samaritan was saved, neither did He even call him "good" for his deed of mercy. Jesus gave the example of the Samaritan to illustrate who it is that is your neighbour, which is what the lawyer asked Jesus to explain.

    The lawyer began his inquiry with this question; "what shall I do to inherit eternal life?" Jesus' answer (in my own paraphrase) - "follow the Law". This alone cast condemnation upon the questioner for no one can follow the Law with the perfection demanded to inherit eternal life from the Law. Furthermore we are told the Law was not instituted to bring life but to show sin and cast light of the condemnation through sin. (Read Romans 1-9) The Law was instituted to point people to justification through faith alone in the Messiah and His work alone on the cross.

    Actually Jesus taught there are NONE good but God; "And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.(Matt 19) Once again Jesus points to the commandments, which can only condemn the questioner.

    You keep saying Jesus did not preach the "damned Samaritan". He most certainly did when He told them they must keep the Law in order to inherit eternal life. The rich young ruler asked Jesus "what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life" (Matt 19). By the time Jesus was done with him the young man went away sad and His disciples were amazed, saying, who then can be saved? But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, with men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible. (Matt 19).

    Here is the "damned" Samaritan, Atheist, Muslim and even the false professing Christian who has a form of religion but no personal relationship with Jesus Christ; "He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." (John 3)

    Good works do not justify a person unto salvation. If you believe it does you have been deceived as I believe the Catholic leadership has been deceived and is leading astray folks as yourself having you believing this "Good Samaritan" doctrine somehow equals salvation. Jews without believing on Jesus Christ are condemned already, matters not how many "good" works they may appear to be doing. This is the point of the OP. Scripture does not support your position.


    ¶What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone. As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. (Romans 9:30-33) Without believing on the Rock which is Jesus Christ, one shall not be saved! Your "Good Samaritan" doctrine is not leading people to eternal life, it is deceiving them into hell.
     
    #18 steaver, Mar 26, 2016
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2016
  19. utilyan

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    We do good works because we value and love the command of God.

    We don't weigh a command of God, ask if there is anything in for us, like salvation. We don't say well Lord I know you command this of me.....but since it won't give salvation I'm just not going to do it.

    We are not whores for salvation. We do the commands for free.

    You're in a pickle because your talking to someone who values the command of God above his own life eternal or not.


    Jesus Christ made up the Good Samaritan, Precisely against the type of person who thinks their status, religion and beliefs alone makes them righteous.

    The Pharisee would have agreed with you the Samaritan is damned. That's what was so shocking about the story.


    Look at the ending.

    36“Which of these three do you think proved to be a neighbor to the man who fell into the robbers’ hands?37And he said, “The one who showed mercy toward him.” Then Jesus said to him, “Go and do the same.”

    To be consistent you would have to tell Jesus "NO". It was the guy in the SAME FAITH as me because he accepted Jesus Christ as personal lord and savior. The Samaritan is not my neighbor at all! LOOK you even said it yourself he is damned. But those two other guys who passed you up, hold your belief they are not damned.


    What if the robbers accept Jesus as lord and savior and they stabbed you.

    And some Muslim picked YOU UP. bandages you, takes you to a hospital and pays your bill?

    You would be spitting in his face the whole ride there? Letting him know he is damned for eternity.


    If you can tell the difference between Kindness and God then you still have a lot to learn about both.
     
  20. steaver

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    That is correct.
    You speak truth.
    Amen!
    No pickle for me.
    Incorrect. Jesus used the example of the merciful Samaritan to show that ALL of mankind is your neighbour regardless of what you may think their status is with God.
    Not quite. The Samaritan is only damned if he hears the Words of Christ on justification and rejects those words.
    No problem. I certainly would do the same. However, my good deed would not be saving me.
    As a born of God child of God I would not be saying "NO". The Samaritan as well as any other person in this world is my neighbour, this is the teaching of the Parable. He may or may not be damned, that depends on if he received Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour or not. As for the two guys who passed me up, I would judge by their fruits they did not hold the faith of Jesus Christ as I do, it matters not if they simply say they do without evidence they actually do.
    Really? With all due respect, do you understand that when one is born-again they are a new creation in Christ? They do not rob and stab people. If they do, they are liars and have never met Jesus Christ in Spirit.
    I would thank him so much for his mercy and kindness. Then I would tell him about Jesus' love and how whosoever believes in him will inherit eternal life, and those who reject God's provision for sin will be damned. This is not "spitting in his face", unless this is what you considered Jesus doing when He told the Pharisees and His disciples as much.
    Kindness does not make a person righteous before God. Maybe it would be benificial if you could explain for me John 3:18. It seems you are ignoring these words of Christ.
     

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