Fears

Bro. Adam: Thank you for taking the time to share your beliefs in such an extensive post. I appreciate it.

To clarify, I did not say that NO Catholics were saved. I have known some that I believe to be true Christians, following Christ.

The fact remains, the Catholics in my family, are still stuck in the rut of not reading the Bible, not growing spiritually, still believing in Purgatory, still needing an earthly priest to absolve them of their sins and give them penance, still doing good works thinking that will get them on the plus side of God's ledger, etc.

These are good people and they are very sincere, but they are sincerely wrong and my heart grieves for them.


Blessings,
Sue

 

Adam: Yeah, Hollywood isn't too cool about representing any of our faiths. Look at the Apostle with Robert Duvall as an example. He completely approved of the Catholic priests work.

However, there is a difference between mediation and intercession as I pointed out. When your friends pray for you, they don't take the place of Christ, and when you confess your sins to your pastor, he doesn't take God's place. Hey look at that- myth despelled! All right!

Gina: Ok, what's the difference between mediation and intercession in the context of Christ being the only mediator? Why should we ask Mary to pray for us? Why not ask Paul to pray for us to? She is not blessed above women, she's blessed among them. Why not ask my grandpa in that case?
I do not confess to my pastor! LOL! Do you? Why would you do that? If I mess up bigtime I may go and ask him for some advice in fixing it, if it's something I can't figure out myself, but for the most part I would only feel the need to go to him with questions concerning meanings of doctrines and such. He has no more authority or power or special relationship with God than I do. I cannot absolve him of his sins in God's name anymore than he can for me.

Adam on perseverance: "The believe only for a time and fall away"

"The person who acts in righteousness is righteous"

"And let perserverance be perfect so that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing."

"Not everyone who says to me 'Lord, Lord' will enter the Kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my father in heaven."

"Therefore, brothers, be all the more eager to make your call and election firm"

"Therefore, brothers, be all the more eager to make your call and election firm."

Gina: First, please name what verses you are quoting and explain what you're talking about, along with what version you're using. I do not have the bible memorized, nor can I read your mind.

Adam: (on "When IS a person's salvation decided?")

The Sheep and the Goats

31"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'
37"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'
40"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'
41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'
44"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'
45"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'
46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

Gina: Again, I can't read you're mind, but I'll assume you're saying a person's salvation isn't secure until they are standing before God and he decides. Right or wrong?

Adam: (on "Salvation is to be part of the church. Really? Scripture please")

Ephesians 5

25Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her

When we are saved (i.e. have faith in Christ unto our salvation) we become part of the Church, the body of Christ. Do you disagree with this?

Gina: I thought we weren't actually saved until we stand before God and he decides. Didn't you just say that?
Apart from that, the question wasn't if we are considered part of the body of Christ when we are saved. The question was "must we be a member of a physical church here on earth for salvation, otherwise we do not have salvation".

 

Gina,

It may just be me, but I'm hearing alot of sarcasm in your posts (on this and other threads). I don't know if you mean it intentionally or not.

"James 5:16
Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective."

 

Alright, alright, I confess! There may have been, although I post to you no different than to others. Ok, so do you forgive me, or do I need to go to a priest? Or should I ask Mary to ask God for me?

It may just be me, but I'm not hearing any credible answers from you on key issues brought up.

Gina

 

"Alright, alright, I confess! There may have been, although I post to you no different than to others. Ok, so do you forgive me, or do I need to go to a priest? Or should I ask Mary to ask God for me?"

Gina, the sarcasm does not suit you well at all.

"It may just be me, but I'm not hearing any credible answers from you on key issues brought up."

It may be. I know I haven't been as complete with some answers as I have with others, but that is the nature of a message board- sometimes you don't have as much time to respond as you would like. You'll have to explain to me what you consider credible though. Usually scripture is enough to be credible for Baptists.

That being said I will try to clarify a few more points here, though I'm sure there are those who are Catholic who could answer better than I.

As I quoted in my last post- we are commanded to confess our sins to one and another. That is why Catholics talk to a priest, and yes I have even talked to my pastor before about my sins.

Absolution is not the divine power to forgive sin. It is a declaration that ones sin is forgiven. For instance, if a pastor in a Baptist church gives an "alter call" and someone comes down to the front and prays with the pastor the pastor might say "Son, if you truly accepted Christ your sins have been forgiven. The pastor is making the declaration that the sinner met the requirements to enter into a relationship with God and join in the new covenant. Likewise if a person brings a sin before a priest, tells the priest that they are truly sorry for what they did and are repentant, the priest can look at them and tell them that God has forgiven them.

Some might object that the language used is that the priest does this "in the place of God" or acts "on God's behalf". Which is quite right. Jesus Christ is now glorified in heaven, and is not with us. So in Christ's physical place, the priest says "your sins are forgiven you" as the pastor says "your sins have been forgiven".

I hope this helps clarify some.

The one other point I wanted to touch on is the intercession of the saints. Now I don't know if the saints in heaven can pray for us, or hear us, the Bible doesn't say that they can't. But if they could- who is in a better position to go to God for us? As our friends here on earth pray for us when we are ill, or in need, so too might the saints pray for us. If there is some biblical passage that states that this is impossible, I'm very interested in knowing it.

There is alot to Catholicism.

 

I can;'t show you the words, "Once Saved Always Saved.", anymore than I can show you the words "Bible' or "Trinity", or "automobile". I CAN, however, show you where it says the exact same meaning.

I. When do I get it? NOW, not later. I AM saved
II. Duration, how long will I have it? ALWAYS

John 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

John 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

John 6:47...He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

John 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Sounds like once I get saved, I am always saved.

You're saved when you cross the STARTING line, not when you cross the finish line. You WILL work after you cross that starting line but the prize isn't salvation but, fulfilling your purpose in the Christian life.

John 6:28...What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent

Rom 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. 6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

Rom 9:30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. 31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. 32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law.

ANY religion that states that in order to OBTAIN salvation I MUST perform works, IS a false religion. If you help Christ then it isn't Christ alone, it is YOU and Christ. Accepting a free gift is not the same thing as EARNING a portion of it.

 

Adam: Gina, the sarcasm does not suit you well at all.

Gina: dodging the questions by turning it into what you feel about the attitude of the poster doesn't suit you well either Adam.

Adam: It may be. I know I haven't been as complete with some answers as I have with others, but that is the nature of a message board- sometimes you don't have as much time to respond as you would like. You'll have to explain to me what you consider credible though. Usually scripture is enough to be credible for Baptists.

Gina: Credible is scripture interpreted and explained in it's proper context and relationship to the conversation.
If you do not have time to respond with a complete answer you have a few options.
Don't bother posting on a subject you don't have time for.
State "I don't know the complete answer and I will look it up when I have time."
Giving partial and inadequate answers is not appropriate when trying to make a point.
Now that these side issues are at rest let's get back to the questions and answers, ok?

Adam: That being said I will try to clarify a few more points here, though I'm sure there are those who are Catholic who could answer better than I.

As I quoted in my last post- we are commanded to confess our sins to one and another. That is why Catholics talk to a priest, and yes I have even talked to my pastor before about my sins.

Absolution is not the divine power to forgive sin. It is a declaration that ones sin is forgiven. For instance, if a pastor in a Baptist church gives an "alter call" and someone comes down to the front and prays with the pastor the pastor might say "Son, if you truly accepted Christ your sins have been forgiven. The pastor is making the declaration that the sinner met the requirements to enter into a relationship with God and join in the new covenant.

Gina: Wrong. The pastor is not doing this authoritatively. I would tell the person the exact same thing. Any Christian would tell them the exact same thing, only we would show them where GOD says, in the bible, that they are forgiven, not expect them to believe that they were forgiven after telling *me*.

Adam: Likewise if a person brings a sin before a priest, tells the priest that they are truly sorry for what they did and are repentant, the priest can look at them and tell them that God has forgiven them.

Gina: What happens if the person tells me instead? May I look at them and give them absolution? (and how does saying the rosary fit in anywhere as part of it?)

Adam: Some might object that the language used is that the priest does this "in the place of God" or acts "on God's behalf". Which is quite right. Jesus Christ is now glorified in heaven, and is not with us. So in Christ's physical place, the priest says "your sins are forgiven you" as the pastor says "your sins have been forgiven".

Gina: I have never had a pastor speak for God for me, especially in matters of forgiveness. I did have a priest stand in for God, had to go to him to "work out" past sins in order to obtain forgiveness and acceptance into the church. But that was in a cult.

Adam: I hope this helps clarify some.

Gina: No, it doesn't. There is no need of a high priest here on earth. We are all of the priesthood, and our one and only high priest is Christ Jesus. Remember the veil leading to the holy of holies being rent in half upon the death of our Savior? That veil separated us from God, we had to have an intercessor. That would have been a priest. Do you get the significance of that veil being rent in half? Why do you think that meant? Why would that happen?

Adam: The one other point I wanted to touch on is the intercession of the saints. Now I don't know if the saints in heaven can pray for us, or hear us, the Bible doesn't say that they can't. But if they could- who is in a better position to go to God for us? As our friends here on earth pray for us when we are ill, or in need, so too might the saints pray for us. If there is some biblical passage that states that this is impossible, I'm very interested in knowing it.

Gina: Are you saying we not only can pray to Mary, but to other dead, so they will pray to God for us? Even if you just mean Mary, what makes her better to go to and ask for prayer than any other dead person? No, the bible doesn't say we can NOT pray to the dead, but I'm quite sure it doesn't condone it. I'll look into that more if you seriously think it's ok to pray to those who have died.

Adam: There is alot to Catholicism.

Gina: Finally. Something we agree on.

 

[edited to note that this is to the previous post, not Gina's] Again, your using scripture exclusively to other scripture. That's private interperation, and the Bible doesn't allow for it. Using private interpertation I can show you why woman will be justified by giving birth to children, why Jesus isn't God, and why there is no Trinity.

You quoted alot of verses that say we are saved through faith in Christ, yet discount verses that say both we are not saved by faith alone and we will not be saved if we do not do works.

We have our inheritence when we have faith in Christ, certainly. But we aren't in heaven YET. So we have been saved, are being saved, and will be saved.

 

Is "believeth" in that verse a one-time belief, or an ongoing belief? If you know anything about Greek tenses, the answer may surprise you.

I thought Baptists *don't* eat his flesh and drink his blood.

Was not Abraham justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? Faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, his faith was perfected.

Yes, they had *no* faith, they were "works only". Nobody here is talking about that.

What use is it if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?

 

"dodging the questions by turning it into what you feel about the attitude of the poster doesn't suit you well either Adam."

I certainly haven't meant to dodge any of your questions. I thought I had answered them all. What has been left unanswered? My comment was that I believe you are above sarcasm and with your knowledge snide remarks simply makes you seem less credible. Thank you for refraining from using it in your last post though.

Credible is scripture interpreted and explained in it's proper context and relationship to the conversation.

What method do you use to determine "proper context"?

"Wrong. The pastor is not doing this authoritatively. I would tell the person the exact same thing. Any Christian would tell them the exact same thing, only we would show them where GOD says, in the bible, that they are forgiven, not expect them to believe that they were forgiven after telling *me*."

I'm not sure we are understanding each other here or I'm just not sure what your trying to say so I'm going to decline comment on those grounds.

What happens if the person tells me instead? May I look at them and give them absolution? (and how does saying the rosary fit in anywhere as part of it?)

Gina, how do you interpert Matthew 19:16?

I have never had a pastor speak for God for me, especially in matters of forgiveness. I did have a priest stand in for God, had to go to him to "work out" past sins in order to obtain forgiveness and acceptance into the church. But that was in a cult.

Are you refering to your time in Mormonism?

"There is no need of a high priest here on earth. We are all of the priesthood, and our one and only high priest is Christ Jesus."

I agree

"Remember the veil leading to the holy of holies being rent in half upon the death of our Savior? That veil separated us from God, we had to have an intercessor. That would have been a priest. Do you get the significance of that veil being rent in half? Why do you think that meant? Why would that happen?"

Do you understand what intercession means? We needed a mediator, now we have intercession as a way to help build each other up. Have you ever made a prayer request in the prayer forum? Then you have asked others for intercession.

I'm sure we are on the same page about the curtain. God left the most Holy of Holies and the Holy Spirit is now given to all who believe.

Are you saying we not only can pray to Mary, but to other dead, so they will pray to God for us? Even if you just mean Mary, what makes her better to go to and ask for prayer than any other dead person?

Catholics believe that we can ask for prayer from the saints, that includes Mary. Mary is in a unique position because she is the Mother of our Lord. At the wedding feast of Cana Mary asked Jesus to do something for her. Even though it was before his time, he did it.

No, the bible doesn't say we can NOT pray to the dead, but I'm quite sure it doesn't condone it. I'll look into that more if you seriously think it's ok to pray to those who have died.

Those who have left the earth and are saints are actually, very, very alive. I'm interested in what you find though- knowledge is power!

God Bless,
Bro. Adam

[DELETED LINK FROM POST]

[ July 22, 2003, 09:04 AM: Message edited by: webmaster ]

 

They are alive but do you believe they are omnipresent?

Eg. If one thousand catholics are praying to Mary simultaneously does she hear every one of those prayers. If she can hear prayers at all wouldn't it be limited to one at a time?

Relevant Scripture would be appreciated.

 

Adam: I certainly haven't meant to dodge any of your questions. I thought I had answered them all. What has been left unanswered? My comment was that I believe you are above sarcasm and with your knowledge snide remarks simply makes you seem less credible. Thank you for refraining from using it in your last post though.

Gina: Like I said, I post to you like I post to anyone else. If you see sarcasm then I'm probably being sarcastic. And? It IS a legitimate method of debate, if that is what you could call this. It helps to make the other person realize how silly he sounds sometimes!

Adam: What method do you use to determine "proper context"?

Gina: Surrounding verses, who's being spoken to, why, when, related passages.

I had posted: "Wrong. The pastor is not doing this authoritatively. I would tell the person the exact same thing. Any Christian would tell them the exact same thing, only we would show them where GOD says, in the bible, that they are forgiven, not expect them to believe that they were forgiven after telling *me*."

Adam replied: I'm not sure we are understanding each other here or I'm just not sure what your trying to say so I'm going to decline comment on those grounds.

Gina: Nah, let's not do that. I'll explain, and if you still can't understand explain what part you don't get. This is important.
What I'm saying is that nobody has the power to tell someone else that they have a "direct link" or any type of access to God that is not available to any other person.

I had said: What happens if the person tells me instead? May I look at them and give them absolution? (and how does saying the rosary fit in anywhere as part of it?)

Adam replied: Gina, how do you interpert Matthew 19:16?

Gina: MT 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

Well, you see, somebody walked up to Jesus and asked him what good thing he could do to have eternal life. What are you getting at? ROFL Did you post the wrong verse or is there something in there that relates to this conversation that I'm just not getting?

Adam: For your answer on the rosary:

Gina: Great, that explains what it is, but it still doesn't answer the point. What's Mary got to do with forgiveness? Or prayer?

Adam: Are you refering to your time in Mormonism?

Gina: Yes

I posted: "There is no need of a high priest here on earth. We are all of the priesthood, and our one and only high priest is Christ Jesus."

Adam replied: I agree

Gina: Great. Now what are you doing defending a religion that takes Christ's priesthood for themselves?

I posted: "Remember the veil leading to the holy of holies being rent in half upon the death of our Savior? That veil separated us from God, we had to have an intercessor. That would have been a priest. Do you get the significance of that veil being rent in half? Why do you think that meant? Why would that happen?"

Adam replied: Do you understand what intercession means? We needed a mediator, now we have intercession as a way to help build each other up. Have you ever made a prayer request in the prayer forum? Then you have asked others for intercession.

Gina: Ok. And? I do not ask them to go to God and ask forgiveness for me. I do not ask them to go talk to God in my place. I ask them to pray along with me for whatever the need is.
Do you understand the difference in this and what is done in the catholic faith?

Adam: I'm sure we are on the same page about the curtain. God left the most Holy of Holies and the Holy Spirit is now given to all who believe.

Gina: Yes, no longer a need for priests here on earth.

I posted: Are you saying we not only can pray to Mary, but to other dead, so they will pray to God for us? Even if you just mean Mary, what makes her better to go to and ask for prayer than any other dead person?

Adam replied: Catholics believe that we can ask for prayer from the saints, that includes Mary. Mary is in a unique position because she is the Mother of our Lord. At the wedding feast of Cana Mary asked Jesus to do something for her. Even though it was before his time, he did it.

Gina: There's a major difference in asking someone on earth standing next to you to do something, and asking someone who has died to ask God to something.
So, your answer is yes. Do you agree with that? We can and should talk/pray to those that have died?



I posted: No, the bible doesn't say we can NOT pray to the dead, but I'm quite sure it doesn't condone it. I'll look into that more if you seriously think it's ok to pray to those who have died.

Adam replied: Those who have left the earth and are saints are actually, very, very alive. I'm interested in what you find though- knowledge is power!

Gina: The closest thing I can find to forbidding it is the command against necromancing. However, the bible calls the LIVING believers saints. Also, we are commanded to approach the throne of grace with boldness.
HEB 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.
How is it approaching the throne of grace boldly and in faith if we ask someone else to do it for us? What does that say about what we think of the power of God, and his request that we approach him, that we trust him, that we not be afraid to ask HIM for our needs? Why should we disregard God himself and pray to someone else for our needs?

[ July 22, 2003, 09:10 AM: Message edited by: webmaster ]

 

I did not include seemingly contradictory verses but, I assure you that I do not discount them.

Rom 4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God

James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works,

Abraham NOT justified by works.
Abraham justified by works.

Which one is it. Both can't be true, yet both are in the Bible, therefore, they BOTH not only CAN be but ARE true. Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him for righteousness because God knows the reality of our faith, He doesn't need works to make it real, or confirm it, or convince Himself of the truth of the matter. Abraham, you and I, and the rest of the world, however, would not be convinced on Abraham's word. We need evidence, proof, tangible proof that this was real. It is just that substantiation of our faith that James is referring to. Real faith produces works. Abraham had real faith and it produced works. God counts us righteous BEFORE we produce works. He doesn't pronounce us righteous when there will be no works because that is not faith at all.

Saved means, "I am going to Heaven, I am NOT going to Hell". At what point can I say, "I am going to Heaven, I am NOT going to Hell"? I maintain that when I accept Christ as my Savior and am indwelt by the Holy Spirit and given the gift of eternal life that THAT is when I am saved (will go to Heaven, will NOT go to Hell). God accounts me as righteous BEFORE I have any works but He does not count me as righteous when there will be no works because real faith produces works. If my faith is real I will produce works, if I SAY I have faith and then produce no works then I am a liar and the truth is not in me. God sees faith without works (at that instant). God sees faith with works follwing ALWAYS.

 

I doubt that the Greek tense would surprise me, but I will accept that you would get to buzz in first if this were a Jeopardy question. My emphasis was on the "have", the fact that it is a present experience (salvation) and eternal.

 

"Gina: Like I said, I post to you like I post to anyone else. If you see sarcasm then I'm probably being sarcastic. And? It IS a legitimate method of debate, if that is what you could call this. It helps to make the other person realize how silly he sounds sometimes! "

Hi Gina,
My issue certianly isn't that your use equal oppertunity sarcasm. It's with the sarcasm itself. It may help you to see how silly a person sounds, but in the end, it is you who sounds silly. I certianly do not believe I sound silly.

I do though believe sarcasm is a tool used not to build up, but to tear down. It's basically saying "your a fool for saying that, watch me mock you". In Matthew we are told that a person who calls a brother a fool is in danger of hell fire. Not that I believe your discourse puts you in danger of hell fire, but I do believe you sound much more credible without it. I think most people are much more willing to take a person who doesn't feel they must use sarcasm seriously. Your last post, in part being that it is mostly without sarcasm, was excellent.

"Gina: Surrounding verses, who's being spoken to, why, when, related passages."

I definitely agree that those are important things to look at. I also believe it is important to ask others their take (i.e. commentaries, scholars) and probably most importantly, to make sure it fits into the message of the Bible as a whole. John 3:16-18 must work harmoniously with James 2:14-18. And so on and so forth.

"Gina: Nah, let's not do that. I'll explain, and if you still can't understand explain what part you don't get. This is important.
What I'm saying is that nobody has the power to tell someone else that they have a "direct link" or any type of access to God that is not available to any other person."

That's fine. I didn't want to comment until I understood, that is all I was saying.

So in other words what you are saying here, is that a priest does not have any special power to absolve sins any more than say, you or I could say "The Bible tells us if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord you will be saved"? I'm I on the right path?

"Gina: MT 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

Well, you see, somebody walked up to Jesus and asked him what good thing he could do to have eternal life. What are you getting at? ROFL Did you post the wrong verse or is there something in there that relates to this conversation that I'm just not getting?"

Yes I did. I apologize. That's what I get for using a protestant commentary (kidding).

This is the verse I tried to refer to:

"And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." Matthew 16:18-19

"Gina: Great, that explains what it is, but it still doesn't answer the point. What's Mary got to do with forgiveness? Or prayer?"

"Pray tell Gina, what do you believe about Mary?" By that example, had it not been a rhetorical question would be me praying to you- to pray is to ask, to beseech an answer from.

I'm not quite sure what you mean "What's Mary got to do with forgiveness?" I can say with surety in the whole scheme of things she consented to birthing the Savior into the world and was given to the apostles as their mother. Catholics certianly do not believe Mary will be forgiving them of any sin. As far as prayer, Catholics believe that Mary is their spiritual and that they can ask her to pray for them. As well as they ask for other saints to pray for them, on heaven and on earth. This subject needs much more discussion and I think should be in its own thread. But for shortness sake I'll stop there for now

"Gina: Great. Now what are you doing defending a religion that takes Christ's priesthood for themselves?"

I defend truth against lies. I don't agree with many things in Catholicism, however the way Baptists such as Jack Chick make Catholics out to be satan worshipping drunkards instead of Christians with a different view on things makes me sick to my stomach.

Gina: Ok. And? I do not ask them to go to God and ask forgiveness for me. I do not ask them to go talk to God in my place. I ask them to pray along with me for whatever the need is.
Do you understand the difference in this and what is done in the catholic faith?

I've never heard a Catholic ask St. Peter to ask God to forgive their sins, but if you have an authoritative Catholic source on this, yes I am interested. Again- I don't agree with everything in Catholicism.

"Yes, no longer a need for priests here on earth."

We are no longer obligated to follow Mosiac law. Priests in the Catholic Church, like in the protestant episcopalian church have a different role than they did in the OT. A "priest" is also considered a pastor or a leader in the church.

"Gina: There's a major difference in asking someone on earth standing next to you to do something, and asking someone who has died to ask God to something.
So, your answer is yes. Do you agree with that? We can and should talk/pray to those that have died?"

I'm not sure how I feel about if the saints in heaven can hear us or pray for us. It certainly wouldn't change soteriology if they could. But it is something I'm still looking at the arguments about.

"How is it approaching the throne of grace boldly and in faith if we ask someone else to do it for us?"

Why would you ask your friends to pray for your needs? Isn't going and asking yourself enough? Will any of your friends cause God to think the cause is more important? Will your friends get God to change his mind?

"What does that say about what we think of the power of God, and his request that we approach him, that we trust him, that we not be afraid to ask HIM for our needs? Why should we disregard God himself and pray to someone else for our needs?"

From what I understand, the more the merrier.

 

"As far as prayer, Catholics believe that Mary is their spiritual"

This should be spiritual mother. Apparently my proof reading took more than 5 minutes and I wasn't able to edit it.

Also I wanted to add on the very last comment- Catholics believe we can go to God himself and petition him. They also understand the importance of asking others to pray for them and their needs.

 

Adam: I certianly do not believe I sound silly.

Gina: Woud you believe it if I told you?

Adam: I do though believe sarcasm is a tool used not to build up, but to tear down. It's basically saying "your a fool for saying that, watch me mock you".

Gina: It's used to tear down false arguments, not you personally. Try not to be overly sensitive.

Adam: I definitely agree that those are important things to look at....

Gina: Cool beans.

I said: Nah, let's not do that. I'll explain, and if you still can't understand explain what part you don't get. This is important.
What I'm saying is that nobody has the power to tell someone else that they have a "direct link" or any type of access to God that is not available to any other person."

Adam replied: That's fine. I didn't want to comment until I understood, that is all I was saying.
So in other words what you are saying here, is that a priest does not have any special power to absolve sins any more than say, you or I could say "The Bible tells us if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord you will be saved"? I'm I on the right path?

Gina: Yes, you're on the right track. Do you agree or disagree with it?

Adam: "And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." Matthew 16:18-19

Gina: Oooh, a favorite verse used by the mormons to prove special powers by the leadership.
If you choose to interpret it literally you're stuck because it was given to Peter.
The keys are knowledge to understand the gospel. Jesus was setting up the church and using the apostles to do so. This included getting rid of the old, ushering in the new, and teaching these things to new members. Many requirements changed (or were fulfilled might be a better way of saying it) and they needed to teach this. Look into Gill's commentary for a bit of explanation. (I don't like it for the most part, but it does seem to give a good explanation on this passage and will probably be said in easier words than I can fumble into type)
Point is, it wasn't power given and passed down in the sense you're using it. It was knowledge to discern the gospel and teach it accordingly.


"Gina: Great, that explains what it is, but it still doesn't answer the point. What's Mary got to do with forgiveness? Or prayer?"

Adam: "Pray tell Gina, what do you believe about Mary?" By that example, had it not been a rhetorical question would be me praying to you- to pray is to ask, to beseech an answer from.

Gina: Pray tell me you said that as a joke. Surely you aren't seriously using that example to condone praying to Mary or others who have died!
If you're serious, I'm sorry. This is as bad as mormonism...redefine every word but still use it so it "looks" the same, explain the true meaning later when the convert is ready to understand. *sigh*


Adam: I'm not quite sure what you mean "What's Mary got to do with forgiveness?" I can say with surety in the whole scheme of things she consented to birthing the Savior into the world and was given to the apostles as their mother.

Gina: I hadn't realized she was asked.

Adam: Catholics certianly do not believe Mary will be forgiving them of any sin. As far as prayer....This subject needs much more discussion and I think should be in its own thread. But for shortness sake I'll stop there for now.

Gina: Ok, I'll watch out for that discussion sometime, but until then, I'll just say that praying is an act of worship and that praying to anyone besides God is a very scary thing to think you condone.

I said: : Great. Now what are you doing defending a religion that takes Christ's priesthood for themselves?"

Adam replies: I defend truth against lies. I don't agree with many things in Catholicism, however the way Baptists such as Jack Chick make Catholics out to be satan worshipping drunkards instead of Christians with a different view on things makes me sick to my stomach.

Gina: the truth pretty much defends itself, it's the lies that need tamed.
I think there's a lot of myth and lies about Mormonism, but I don't understand the need of a Christian to spend time going to other Christians defending what parts of Mormonism are not lies.

Adam: I've never heard a Catholic ask St. Peter to ask God to forgive their sins, but if you have an authoritative Catholic source on this, yes I am interested. Again- I don't agree with everything in Catholicism.

Gina: Let's try it this way. When does a person say the rosary thingie? (haha, forgot the name of it)

Adam: We are no longer obligated to follow Mosiac law. Priests in the Catholic Church, like in the protestant episcopalian church have a different role than they did in the OT. A "priest" is also considered a pastor or a leader in the church.

Gina: What is the difference between a catholic priest and a Christian pastor? What does the priest do that the Christian "priest" does not?

I said: There's a major difference in asking someone on earth standing next to you to do something, and asking someone who has died to ask God to something.
So, your answer is yes. Do you agree with that? We can and should talk/pray to those that have died?"

Adam replied: I'm not sure how I feel about if the saints in heaven can hear us or pray for us. It certainly wouldn't change soteriology if they could. But it is something I'm still looking at the arguments about.

Gina: You don't know how you feel about praying to those who have died? You don't know how you feel about praying to someone besides God? Do you do it? If you don't why not?

I said: How is it approaching the throne of grace boldly and in faith if we ask someone else to do it for us?"

Adam replied: Why would you ask your friends to pray for your needs? Isn't going and asking yourself enough? Will any of your friends cause God to think the cause is more important? Will your friends get God to change his mind?

Gina: The bible tells us to pray for each other. We obey that. We do not ask others to pray in our stead. We ask other LIVING people to pray WITH us.

I said: Why should we disregard God himself and pray to someone else for our needs?"

Adam replied: From what I understand, the more the merrier.

Gina: Be careful in taking idolatry lightly.

 

No offense meant to anyone; but shouldn't this thread be moved to the "Other Religions" Forum?

There has already been one on Catholicism moved there, but I see there are still two left in here and one was started by the moderator that moved the first one...

Just Curious,
Sue

 

"Gina: the truth pretty much defends itself, it's the lies that need tamed.
I think there's a lot of myth and lies about Mormonism, but I don't understand the need of a Christian to spend time going to other Christians defending what parts of Mormonism are not lies."

I spend time defending the truth in the Catholic faith because they are Christians, and I wholy disagree with Dr. Bob Griffins assessment that 99.9% of them are going to hell. They certianly do not worship idols (well, maybe some do, but it is not what the Church teaches).

Asking someone something is not an act of worship. Catholics do not consider Mary divine. They believe she is infinitely below Christ. It is your false definition that to pray means to worship.

Well, Apparently Dr. Bob feels this thread has degenerated so much that it needs to be closed (I don't understand how though). I'm sure we will end up talking about all these things and more in other threads.

Thank you for your input. Sarcasm aside, it has been valuable.

God Bless,
Bro. Adam