Fears

Adam, it seems you are being hoodwinked rather royally. Here is something I wrote a few years ago which you might want to consider.

=================

[all emphases in Scripture verses are the author's. Quotes are taken from the New International Version for the sake of clarity of English. The KJV or any other standard translation will not be different in meaning and their translations may be freely used in place of the NIV here.]


When the subject of idolatry is brought up to Catholics, they deny it. When the subject of worshiping Mary is broached, it is said only to be veneration offered to her. But the truth of the matter is that the Roman Catholic Church ascribes attributes, powers, and work to Mary that the Bible ascribes only to God. A quick and clear proof of this may be found in the Rosary, which all Catholics pray, with special attention paid to the closing lines.

First of all when Catholics pray the Rosary, here is what is recited:
The Apostles' Creed -- one time
The Lord's Prayer -- six times
"Glory be...." -- six times

BUT
"Hail Mary...." 53 times

First of all, that certainly shows who has primacy!


Now, let's look at the conclusion to the Rosary:


Hail, holy Queen, Mother of Mercy!

The title of Queen came into the Catholic Church by way of paganism. It is only there that any "Queen" in
heaven or of heaven exists. There is no Queen in or of heaven in any Judeo or Christian theology. It is an entirely pagan concept and, as such, Catholics are subscribing to pagan terminology and a pagan practice.

The following verses are from Jeremiah 7:16-19; and 44:15-28

So do not pray for this people nor offer any plea or petition for them; do not plead with me, for I will not listen to you. Do you not see what they are doing in the towns of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem? The children gather wood, the fathers light the fire, and the women knead the dough and make cakes of bread for the Queen of Heaven. They pour out drink offering to other gods to provoke me to anger. But am I the one they are provoking? declares the LORD. Are they not rather harming themselves, to their own shame?

...Then all the men who knew that their wives were burning incense to other gods, along with all the women who were present -- a large assembly -- and all the people living in Lower and Upper Egypt, said to Jeremiah, "We will not listen to the message you have spoken to us in the name of the LORD! We will certainly do everything we said we would: We will burn incense to the Queen of Heaven and will pour out drink offerings to her just as we and our fathers, our kings and our officials did in the towns of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem. At that time we had plenty of food and were well off and suffered no harm. But ever since we stopped burning incense to the Queen of Heaven and pouring out drink offerings to her, we have had nothing and have been perishing by sword and famine."

The women added, "When we burned incense to the Queen of Heaven and poured out drink offerings to her, did not our husbands know that we were making cakes like her image and pouring out drink offerings to her?"

Then Jeremiah said to all the people, both men and women, who were answering him, "Did not the LORD remember and think about the incense burned in the towns of Judah and the streets of Jerusalem by you and your fathers, your kings and your officials and the people of the land? When the LORD could no longer endure your wicked actions and the detestable things you did, your land became an object of cursing and a desolate waste without inhabitants, as it is today. Because you have burned incense and have sinned against the LORD and have not obeyed him or followed his law or his decrees or his stipulations, this disaster has come upon you, as you now see."

Then Jeremiah said to all the people, including the women, "Hear the word of the LORD, all you people of Judah in Egypt. This is what the LORD Almighty, the God of Israel says: You and your wives have shown by your actions what you promised when you said, 'We will certainly carry out the vows we made to burn incense and pour out drink offerings to the Queen of Heaven.

"Go ahead then, do what you promised! Keep your vows! But hear the word of the LORD, all Jews living in Egypt: 'I swear by my great name,' says the LORD, 'that no one from Judah living anywhere in Egypt will ever again invoke my name or swear, "As surely as the Sovereign LORD lives". For I am watching over them fore harm, not for good; the Jews in Egypt will perish by the sword and famine until they are all destroyed. Those who escape the sword and return to the land of Judah from Egypt will be very few. Then the whole remnant of Judah who came to live in Egypt will know whose word will stand -- mine or theirs.'"


Nor does mercy have a mother. It is an original attribute of God -- the eternal God. As Mary herself said, "His mercy extends to those who fear him, from generation to generation." (Luke 1:50)

And hear what Peter himself has to say: But you [God's elect, the believers] are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. Once you were not a people, but now you are the people of God; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.

.
our life, our sweetness, our hope

Is she really that for you? Let's see what the Bible says,

about LIFE:

John 14:6 – I am the way, the truth and the LIFE... -- Jesus is talking there.

Or go back to John 1:4 -- In him [the Lord Jesus Christ] was life, and that life was the light of men.

Acts 17:24-25 -- The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by hands. And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything, because he himself gives all men life and breath and everything else.

Romans 6:23 -- For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

2 Corinthians 3:6 -- He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant -- not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

Colossians 2:3-4 -- For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God. When Christ, who is your life, appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.

2 Timothy 1:9b-10 -- This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time, but it has now been revealed through the appearing of our Savior, Christ Jesus, who has destroyed death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.


About SWEETNESS

Psalm 119:103, speaking of God's Law, says --
How sweet are your words to my taste,
sweeter than honey to my mouth!


About HOPE

Romans 15:13 --May the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace as you trust in him, so that you may overflow with hope by the power of the Holy Spirit.

1 Timothy 1:1 -- Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the command of God our Savior and of Christ Jesus our hope...

1 Timothy 4:9-10 -- This is a trustworthy saying that deserved full acceptance (and for this we labor and strive), that we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe.

1 Timothy 5:5 -- The widow who is really in need and left all alone puts her hope in God and continues night and day to pray and to ask God for help.

And from Peter himself, 1 Peter 1:20-21 -- He [Christ Jesus] was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake. Through him you believe in God, who raised him from the dead and glorified him, and so your faith and hope are in God.

Thus, Biblically, God Himself is our life and our hope, and His Law -- His Word -- our sweetness. By ascribing these qualities to Mary, the Roman Catholic Church is blasphemously ascribing to her the qualities only God has.

To continue with the words Catholics pray, though:

To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve;
to thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping in the valley of tears.

What an insult to God! Look at what His Word says, in contrast:

Romans 8:28 -- And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.

John 15:11 -- I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. Those words are from our Lord Jesus Christ.

Romans 15:13 (again)-- May the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace as you trust in him, so that you may overflow with hope by the power of the Holy Spirit.

Galatians 5:22 -- But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control.

Philippians 1:25-26 -- Convinced of this, I know that I will remain, and I will continue with all of you for your progress and joy in the faith, so that through my being with you again your joy in Christ Jesus will overflow on account of me.

1 Thessalonians 5:16-18 -- Be joyful always; pray continually; give thanks in all circumstances, for this is God's will for you in Christ Jesus.

1 Peter 1:8 -- Though you have not seen him, you love him; and even though you do not see him now, you believe in him and are filled with an inexpressible and glorious joy, for you are receiving the goal of your faith, the salvation of your souls.


.
Turn, then, most gracious Advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us;

Advocate? Let's see what the Bible says:

Job 16:19-21 --
Even now my witness is in heaven;
my advocate is on high.
My intercessor is my friend
as my eyes pour out tears to God;
on behalf of man he pleads with God
as a man pleads for his friend.

Hebrews 7:23-25 -- Now there have been many of those priests, since death prevented them from continuing in office; but because Jesus lives forever, he has a permanent priesthood. Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.

Did Job know about the coming Messiah? He certainly did. It is from him we hear the words, "I know that my Redeemer lives." in Job 19:25. We have an Advocate and Intercessor who saves us completely. We need no other and our Lord needs no help.


.
and after this our exile show us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus;

1 John 3:2 -- Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when he appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. Everyone who has this hope in him purifies himself, just as he is pure.

1 Corinthians 1:7-9 -- Therefore you do not lack any spiritual gift as you eagerly wait for our Lord Jesus Christ to be revealed. He will keep you strong to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. God, who has called you into fellowship with his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, is faithful.


Born again Christians do not need anyone to SHOW them Jesus! They already are indwelt by the precious Holy Spirit, as Paul states so clearly in Romans 8:9 --"You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ." It is true that there will come a time when we will see Him as He is, which is not this time yet. But when that happens, Mary will have no part in facilitating it. The sheep do not need anything but proximity to see the Shepherd.

.
O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary.

In Genesis 2:24, we read -- For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh.

In Matthew 1:20-25, we read,
But after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, "Joseph
son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her of
from the Holy Spirit. She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he
will save his people from their sins."
All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet: "The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel" -- which means, "God with us."
When Joseph woke up, he did what the angel of the Lord had commanded him and took Mary home as his wife. But he had no union with her until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus.

Now, in 1 Corinthians 7:3-5, we read
The husband should fulfill his marital duty to his wife, and likewise the wife to her husband. The wife's body does not belong to her alone but also to her husband. In the same way, the husband's body does not belong to him alone but also to his wife. Do not deprive each other except by mutual consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.

Now go to Hebrews 13:4 -- Marriage should be honored by all, and the marriage bed kept pure...

If Mary did not have sexual intercourse with her husband Joseph she was defiling the marriage bed and the meaning of marriage as intended by God. Mary was not a virgin after Jesus was born. She was a normal wife and had normal children, as mentioned in Matthew 13.

.
Pray for us, O holy mother of God.

First of all, we already have the Holy Spirit who prays for us when we don't know what we ought to pray ourselves -- In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express. (Romans 8:26)

So to ask Mary to pray for us is an insult to the Holy Spirit, for that is HIS function -- or part of it.

Secondly, God has no mother. The term "mother of God" is entirely pagan and can be traced all the way back to ancient Babylon and the great apostasy. Mary was the mother of Jesus' earthly body, and that is all. She was in no way, shape, or form, the progenitor of His deity!

.
That we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ.

Made worthy? We are NEVER worthy of anything from Christ. The whole point of the Christian message and the whole point of Christ's work here was that the only way we have any worthiness at all is through Him and in Him. Apart from our Lord Jesus Christ, we have no worthiness of anything, including His promises.

And keep in mind one other thing -- His promises are promises. Those who are His will receive all that is promised. They cannot be made worthy apart from Him, and once in Him there is no holding back:

For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of
sonship. And by him we cry, "Abba, Father." The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are
God's children. Now if we are children, then we are heirs --heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if
indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.
... For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to
separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord. (from Romans 8)

The Mary that the Rosary is prayed to is ascribed the attributes, powers, and work of God. She is not, in any way, the young woman who gave birth to the infant Jesus that night in Bethlehem about 2000 years ago. The Mary of the Rosary is the same Queen of Heaven the Jews in Egypt were burning incense to. The same Queen who comes down in Roman mythology and Greek mythology, which is present in Egyptian mythology and the Hindu religion. Her original was probably the wife of Nimrod if linguistics is giving us enough of a clue.

The one person the Mary of the Rosary is NOT, is the mother of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

 

For your consideration:

"When God appears at the golden gates and demands to know why He should let me in, what do I say? It is only the most important question in the world, and it bears endless repeating even though Scripture is quite clear about it........
Jesus tells us two shocking things about getting to Heaven. We often hear the second without the first. The second shock is the good news that Heaven's door is open; that only accepting the gift by faith, hope and love is required; that the gift is Christ, who takes the whole scraggly, clownish, ragamuffin, confused and bickering crowd of sinner-saints piggyback to Heaven. But the first shock is the bad news that all other ways are absolutely impotent, whether good works or good intentions or meditation or mystical enlightenment or asceticism or social service or any kind of spiritual athleticism.....
One falls in love by giving one's all. That is what He demands. Love will not settle for anything else. "All" includes our trust in all His words, even His shocking words about Hell and about Himself as the only way to the Father. His claim is total on our life because He claimed not just to show the truth but to BE the Truth. His claim is total on our life because He claimed not just to show the way but to BE the Way.............'I Am the Life.'"

from Everything You Ever Wanted to Know About Heaven by Peter Kreeft, Catholic philosophy professor at Boston College

Personally, I have experienced a number of Baptist revivals and invitations in which church members of long years' standing have walked the aisles to accept Christ. And I have met a few Baptists who did not know hardly anything about doctrine.
I have as much confidence of meeting Peter Kreeft and G. K. Chesterton in Heaven as in meeting many Baptists there.
Catholicism is diverse, shall we say. We cannot overgeneralize about it any more than going just to an Alliance Baptist church or an IFB KJVO church and thinking that is what all Baptists are like.

Karen

Karen

 

Karen, there is a rather vast difference between what the Catholic church espouses as doctrine worthy of teaching its members -- and getting them to recite as a matter of 'penance' -- such as the Rosary -- and the individual beliefs and relationships Christians have with the Lord.

Whether any individual does nor does not end up in heaven is not the subject here. The teaching of the Roman Catholic church is. Here is another study I put together during discussions with a Catholic on another forum I moderated several years ago:

=============

Roman Catholics claim that they are the church begun by Christ and then empowered by Him to lead Christianity. This is based on Matthew 16:16-19 and parallel verses. Christ did not leave a church to govern or teach. He left the Apostles.

Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God's people and members of God's household, with CHRIST JESUS HIMSELF as the chief cornerstone. (Ephesians 2:19-20)

Jesus Christ HIMSELF is the stone, or rock, of Matthew 16:18 and parallel verses. Please take a look at some of the Scriptures the disciples, and all Jews, knew:

Genesis 49:24 -- But his bow remained steady,
his strong arms stayed limber,
bacause of the hand of the Mighty One of Jacob,
because of the Shepherd the Rock of Israel,
because of your father's God, who helps you...

Deuteronomy 32:3-4 -- I will proclaim the name of the LORD,
Oh, praise the greatness of our God!
He is the Rock, his works are perfect, and all his ways are just.

Deuteronomy 32:15 -- Jeshurun grew fat and kicked;
filled with food, he became heavy and sleek.
He abandoned the God who made him
and rejected the Rock his Savior.

Deuteronomy 32:18 -- You deserted the Rock, who fathered you;
you forgot the God who gave you birth.

Deuteronomy 32:30 -- How could one man chase a thousand,
or two put ten thousand to flight,
unless their Rock had sold them,
unless the LORD had given them up?
For their rock is not like our Rock,
even as our enemies concede.


Those verses are from the Torah -- the first five books of our Old Testament, which are referred to by Christ and all Jews as The Law. It is very clear in The Law who the Rock is.


But let's keep going:

1 Samuel 2:2 is part of Hannah's prayer --
There is no one holy like the LORD;
there is no one besides you;
there is no Rock like our God.

2 Samuel 22:32 -- For who is God besides the LORD?
And who is the Rock except our God?

2 Samuel 22:47 -- The LORD lives! Praise be to my Rock!
Exalted be God, the Rock, my Savior!

Psalm 18 repeats these sections of 2 Samuel 22

Psalm 19:14 -- May the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart
be pleasing in your sight,
O LORD, my Rock and my Redeemer.

Psalm 28:1 -- To you I call, O LORD my Rock;
do not turn a deaf ear to me.

Psalm 42:9 -- I say to God my Rock,
'Why have you forgotten me?
Why must I go about mourning,
oppressed by the enemy?

Psalm 62:1-2 -- My soul finds rest in God alone;
my salvation comes from him.
He alone is my Rock and my salvation;
he is my fortress, I will never be shaken.

Psalm 89:26 -- "He will call out to me, 'You are my Father,
my God, the Rock, my Savior.'"

Psalm 92:15 -- The LORD is upright;
he is my Rock, and there is no wickedness in him.

Psalm 95:1 -- Come, let us sing for joy to the LORD;
let us shout aloud to the Rock of our salvation.

Psalm 144:1 -- Praise be to the LORD my Rock,


Isaiah 8:13-14 --
The LORD Almighty is the one you are to regard as holy,
he is the one you are to fear,
he is the one you are to dread,
and he will be a sanctuary;
but for both houses of Israel he will be
a stone that causes men to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall.

Isaiah 17:10 -- You have forgotten God your Savior;
you have not remembered the Rock, your fortress.

Isaiah 26:4 -- Trust in the LORD forever,
for the LORD, the LORD, is the Rock eternal.

Isaiah 44:8 -- You are my witnesses. Is there any God besides me?
No, THERE IS NTHER ROCK; I KNOW NOT ONE.

Consistently, in the Law, the Poetry, and the Prophets, "Rock" is used to describe God. It should be noted in the Isaiah verses quoted that not only is God the Rock at that time, but that He will be (8:14) and that he is the Rock eternal (26:4). This eliminates any other "Rock" in which to trust or believe in Jewish or Christian theology. Every single one of the disciples was Jewish and had been bar mitzvahed. They KNEW their Scriptures. When Jesus declared to them, "And on this Rock I will build my church" they would have known IMMEDIATELY what He was referring to. He was identifying Himself as God, in agreement with Peter's statement of faith.

The saddest thing to me, of all this, is that the Roman Catholic Church counts on the fact that their members DON'T know the Scriptures. I urge Catholics to read God's Word for themselves. There are three legs supporting Roman Catholicism: ignorance, money, and fear. Take any one of those away and the Roman Catholic church will totter and fall.

It is NOT a matter of "only Bible." It is a matter of not knowing the Bible, regardless of what is added to it. At least, all who consider themselves Christians should know that one book, so that if something contradicts it, the person will know. I am convinced that this is why the Catholic church does not encourage its members to read or know the Bible; too much in Roman Catholicism contradicts God's Word.

 

I'm not sure I agree. I know there are many respected Protestant scholars who don't agree with you. You started the quote in the middle. The entire quote is "Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed [it] unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. [18] And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. [19] And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

In Greek, "Peter" is the same word as "rock" (petros). Why would Jesus say "thou art Peter (rock)" *right before* saying "and upon this rock I will build my church"? If he's not talking about Peter, telling Peter his own name is *completely* pointless. Are you saying Christ's words here are pointless and it's simply coincidence that Peter means "rock"? Maybe you can, but I can't in good conscience say that.

Notice also the very next verse, "And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven". "thee" is KJV-ese for *singular* you. Said "you are 'rock' and upon this rock will I build my church, and I will give the keys of heaven to you (singular). That's pretty heavy stuff, and I understand why Protestants want to blow it off as unimportant.

Yes, Christ is the cornerstone. You even started your post by quoting Ephesians 2:19-20 - but something about how you posted it didn't look right to me. So I looked it up. I discovered you snipped out a key part of the passage! Why??? (actually, I think it's a little obvious why you did)

"Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God's people and members of God's household, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone."

 

Dear Helen,
Thanks for your good comments.
I agree the issue is the teaching of the Catholic church. I should have clarified that I quoted Kreeft and mentioned Chesterton because they are well-known as orthodox Catholic apologists who consider (Kreeft is alive, Chesterton died 60 or 70 years ago) a great deal of popular Catholic piety as a misunderstanding of true Catholic teaching.

Karen

 

The way I understand the passage, Jesus is making a distinction between Peter (“the loose stone”) and Himself being “this rock” (that is, the “bedrock”). It is not pointless since Christ is using a play on words to explain that He is the bedrock and Peter is a stone to be built upon Him.

 

Yes, I can see that perhaps, but I think it's less likely the intended meaning. The context of the passage is about giving Peter authority. If Jesus was talking about himself, why would he just tell Peter this? Why would he give Peter the keys to heaven? Why would he make a play on words that is in opposition to how it makes the most sense?

A cornerstone is used to "set the alignment" - it's the part that everything else uses as the guideline, the standard. Once the cornerstone is in place, then the foundation is set, aligning with the cornerstone. Then once the foundation is in place, the building is built upon the foundation. Eph 2:20 says Christ is the cornerstone, and the prophets and apostles are the foundation, the house of God built on that foundation.

 

I'm not sure I agree. I know there are many respected Protestant scholars who don't agree with you. You started the quote in the middle. The entire quote is "Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed [it] unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. [18] And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. [19] And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

In Greek, "Peter" is the same word as "rock" (petros). Why would Jesus say "thou art Peter (rock)" *right before* saying "and upon this rock I will build my church"? If he's not talking about Peter, telling Peter his own name is *completely* pointless. Are you saying Christ's words here are pointless and it's simply coincidence that Peter means "rock"? Maybe you can, but I can't in good conscience say that.</font>[/QUOTE]Peter is a translation of 'petros', the masculine noun, meaning 'small pebble' or 'loose rock'. When Christ said that upon this rock he would build his church, he deliberately used the other word for 'rock' -- petra -- the feminine. This is a large boulder, and a direct reference to the Scriptural passages regarding Christ/God as the Rock. Plays on words are extraordinarily common in the Scriptures -- and until I started studying them for themselves some time ago, I had no idea how many there were. But I stand by the statement that if the Apostles had thought Christ was referring to anyone but God by the term 'petra', they would have walked away at that instant. They knew their Scriptures too well to tolerate that kind of blasphemy.

It's not unimportant, but the idea that Peter or any man was to be given the right to judge is a misunderstanding of the highest order, to the point of contradicting other parts of Scripture. It was Peter, please note, that preached on the day of Pentecost. He preached Jesus. Jesus had said clearly that HE was the way, the truth, and the life and that NNE could get to the Father but through Him. Therefore Jesus Himself IS the key to heaven. And He gave Himself to Peter as well as to the other Apostles and to us. Peter opened up the way to heaven to the Jews by preaching Jesus. But he never, never was given the right to judge the heart of any man.

I left out the middle section to avoid confusion and to shorten my typing time! But the fact is that the Apostles did lay the foundation with their teaching of Jesus and of His life and words. Anything else would have been blasphemous! Christ Jesus is the CHIEF cornerstone -- the stone by which the entire building is measured and built. The rest of the foundation must line up with the cornerstone. Jesus Himself was and is the Rock, the Stone -- and certainly the one that has caused many to stumble, but the one, also, upon which His true church is built.

The Catholics teach otherwise.

 

Catholic teachings aren't necessarily contrary to Scripture. They are, however, clearly contrary to our interpretation of scripture.

We need to understand that we don't have all the answers, and there's a possibility that some of our interpretations might be wrong.

 

John, Roman Catholic teachings are violently in contradiction to Scripture.

Scripture says all have sinned. RC says 'not Mary.'

Scripture says Christ paid for all sins. RC says some must be paid for in Purgatory.

Scripture says we are to believe. RC says that's no good if one does not perform the rites they require.

Jesus taught us to pray to the Father. RC teaches to pray to the 'saints.'

The commandments require no construction of images of men or animals. Go visit an RC church and look at the images all around.

Jesus told us to call no man 'Father' (in the ecclesiastical sense). RC requires the priests be called "Father."

God said it is not good for man to be alone. RC requires celibate priests -- and that sure has led to a lot of problems, hasn't it?

The list goes on and on and on -- even to the basic doctrine of salvation by grace and not by works.

Roman Catholic doctrine in many foundational areas is in direct contradiction to God's Word in the Bible. That should not be mistaken by any feel-good wanna-be-friendly-with-everyone ideas. The truth is the truth is the truth.

 

Really? What about if someone other than Jesus had "the keys of the kingdom of heaven"?

Who said anything about judging in this conversation?

What do you think being given the keys to the kingdom of heaven means? What do you think "and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven" means?

Peter was given the 'keys' of the kingdom of heaven. Plural. Not 'key', singular.

Really. Funny, you can shorten time even further by copy/paste. It takes more time to *edit out a phrase*. How is leaving out the middle avoiding confusion? I find it very interesting that just a few words (5 seconds of typing) were snipped to save time and avoid confusion, when those same words worked against the main argument you were making.

Um, yeah. I know. Now look again at the Eph passage you snipped up. Christ is the cornerstone. The prophets and the apostles are the foundation, aligned to the cornerstone. The house of God (the body of believers) is built on the foundation.

No they don't.

 

Scripture says all have sinned. RC says 'not Mary.'
The RC believes that Mary was without original sin, not that she was sinless her entire life.

Scripture says Christ paid for all sins. RC says some must be paid for in Purgatory.
Purgaroty is not a place, it is a process. Heaven and Hell, otoh, are places. Purgatory is not related to Heaven and Hell in the same manner.

Scripture says we are to believe. RC says that's no good if one does not perform the rites they require.
Rites are performed out of obedience, not for reasons of salvation. We, as Baptists, require our members to be baptised after being born again, yet baptism has nothing to do with salvation. Although, some non-baptists believe that the Baptist thought is Baptism as a salfific requisite.

Jesus taught us to pray to the Father. RC teaches to pray to the 'saints.'
Saints aren't supposed to be prayed to. However, saints are asked "pray for those on earth".

The commandments require no construction of images of men or animals. Go visit an RC church and look at the images all around.
Wrong. The Commandments forbid the creations of idols for worship. The RCC allows only GOd to be worshipped.

Jesus told us to call no man 'Father' (in the ecclesiastical sense). RC requires the priests be called "Father." I think this is a bit of spliiting of hairs. If you take this literally, we should not be calling our own parents Father. That's not what Jesus was getting at.

God said it is not good for man to be alone. RC requires celibate priests -- and that sure has led to a lot of problems, hasn't it?
Since most men who are pedophiles are also married and have children, I fail to see the connection. CHeck with your local law enforcement agency if you don't believe me. Marriage is not a biblical requirement among men and women. We have debates on this very board where some people assert that devorced men must remain single their entire lives. If it is not good for man to alone, then why this double standard amongst Baptists?

The list goes on and on and on -- even to the basic doctrine of salvation by grace and not by works.
The RCC teaches that salvation is by Christ alone. It teaches that performance of works for the believer is an act of obedience to God and from example of Christ.

The truth is the truth is the truth.
If you believe that, then you must accept the Catholics on this board probably know the truth about Catholicism better than the Baptists on this board do. Funny how we Baptists think we're experts on everyone else.

 

Helen, I won't address all your points here, because on some of them I agree with you. However:

James 2 says it's no good as well, unless there are works.

The RCC also teachs to pray to the Father. The Bible teaches us that "pray" means simply to ask/beseech, and that those in heaven are aware of earthly activity (Heb 12:1, Luke 15:10, Rev 5:8, etc.)

The OT temple had constructed images (1 Kings 6:29), the ark of the covenant did too (Exodus 25:18). So did David's temple (at God's command!) in 1 Chronicles 28:18-19. Moses made a bronze serpent to save the Israelites in Numbers 21:8-9. Solomon made statues of angels in 2 Chronicles 3:10-13. Heck, even my Baptist church had statues of the manger scene out on display last Christmas, full of men and animals. The commandment against image has to do with *worship* of these items.

Technically, Jesus didn't specify "in the ecclesiastical sense". Jews and Christians called David, Isaac and Abraham "father". Paul said he exhorted his readers like a "father".

Christ remained single. Paul remained single and said "I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, It is good for them if they abide even as I" and "if thou marry, thou hast not sinned; and if a virgin marry, she hath not sinned. Nevertheless such shall have trouble in the flesh: but I spare you. But this I say, brethren, the time is short: it remaineth, that both they that have wives be as though they had none."

I think you're mixing things up. Catholics teach that salvation is by grace. They just teach that some works done with faith give grace, and that faith alone is dead (as James 2 says).

I used to think so too, until I started to listen to what they actually believed instead of telling them what they believed.

 

You may want to check on this more. First off, what good is it for her to not have original sin if she would just sin later on? At least by implication they teach that she did not sin until after the birth of Christ. Another thing is that a well-known Catholic apologist disagrees with the meaning of the Church's teaching. Quoting Scott Hahn from page 98 of his book Hail, Holy Queen:

"In His [God's] providential plan, He found it fitting that Mary should be preserved from sin completely, all the days of her life." (Emphasis mine)

Also, from that same book:

"Augustine put the doctrine in its proper, familial context, saying that it would be an offense against Jesus to say that His mother was a sinner. All have sinned, said Augustine, ' except the holy Virgin Mary..." (p. 96, emphasis mine)

"Her redemption was an act of preservation, while for all others it is an act of deliverance." (p. 98)

Yes, this is not "official" teaching of the church, but it is clear as to what is implied and Scott Hahn (and Augustine) explicitly states it. If you want, go down to the Other Religions forum and try to say that Mary sinned at some point in her life and see what happens. I tried that once.

All Glory Be to God,
Neal

[ July 21, 2003, 05:49 PM: Message edited by: neal4christ ]

 

Helen, been there, done that. Old news friend, sorry. Unfortunately saying "Catholics don't believe what they say they believe" and pulling together things like "they say the Hail Mary 53 times so she must have primacy" are some of the loosest and worst arguments I've heard.

I've got a link here somewhere that shows your misunderstanding of "rock", I'll find it and get back to you.

I'm still waiting for Clint to get back to me on a formal debate on Sole Fida with Bob Ryan though- anyone know where he went?

 

neal, check out how "all" should be applied.

 

Sorry, for some reason I can't edit my own post now. But anyway, the above sentence should read:

Another thing is that a well-known Catholic apologist disagrees with your [Johnv's] interpretation as to the meaning of the Church's teaching.

In Christ,
Neal

 

Why don't you enlighten me?

Besides, that still would not change my point of refuting what Johnv said. It is clear that Catholics believe that Mary had no original sin and that she was sinless for life. He said that they did not believe this.

God Bless You,
Neal

 

Neal:

You are correct. Catholics do believe that Mary was sinless for life. See Paragraph 411 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church. The last sentence of this paragraph reads: "Mary benefited first of all and uniquely from Christ's victory over sin; she was preserved from all stain of original sin and by a special grace of God committed no sin of any kind during her whole earthly life."

God Bless!

Priscilla Ann

 

Ahh! Thank-you, I was looking in the wrong place in my Catechism. So I stand corrected. It is official teaching of the Catholic Church, not just Hahn's interpretation.

Thanks!

God Bless,
Neal