Federal Headship: Why does Adam represent everyone and Christ only represent a few?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Skandelon, Nov 14, 2011.

  1. Skandelon

    Skandelon
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    12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned-- 13 for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come. 15 But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16 Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man's sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. 17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ. 18 Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous. 20 The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, 21 so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

    Some have a problem with the idea of Adam being representative for all mankind, but clearly that is what Paul teaches in this passage, and I think we can all agree on this point.

    But who does Christ represent as the 'second Adam?' It appears that the same 'many' who Adam represents is the same 'many' Christ represents. As Paul says, "just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men.

    So, why do Calvinist say that Christ only represents a select few? How is that fair? The concept of Federal Headship seems fine when all are represented by the two federal heads, so why do Calvinists insist Christ doesn't represent everyone?

    Calvinists insist this would lead to universalism, but that is NOT true if the imputation of that representative is CONDITIONAL.

    Our being condemned is conditioned upon our sinning. As Paul CLEARLY states in Rom 5:12: Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned.

    In the same way, our being justified is conditioned upon our faith...as the verses above indicate.

    But, we are ALL represented by BOTH Federal HEADS, not just one of them. That is the biblical view and it is fair.
     
  2. quantumfaith

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    I predict arguments over "fairness".
     
  3. jbh28

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    Maybe Adam represents everyone in Adam, and Christ represents everyone in Christ.
     
  4. zrs6v4

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    Disregard this post i missed your explanation.
     
  5. convicted1

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    Also, the first Adam was of the earth, earthly. The last Adam, a quickening Spirit.(1 Cor. 15:45)
     
  6. convicted1

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    Both represent us. Good post.
     
  7. freeatlast

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    Why does Adam represent everyone and Christ only represent a few?

    Because all are born in Adam but not all are born again in Christ.
     
  8. Iconoclast

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    SKAN

    Some have a problem with the idea of Adam being representative for all mankind, but clearly that is what Paul teaches in this passage, and I think we can all agree on this point.

    But who does Christ represent as the 'second Adam?' It appears that the same 'many' who Adam represents is the same 'many' Christ represents.

    It only appears that way to you because you are intent on resisting the truth of this passage.


    As Paul says, "just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men,

    All men are born dead in Adam....yes....physical birth.

    so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men.

    This only comes by new birth.

    So, why do Calvinist say that Christ only represents a select few? How is that fair?

    They do not say that....you say they say that because you seek to undermine the truth presented here and in calvinistic theology.
    Calvinists teach that God will save a multitude in Christ....
    Calvinists believe the Lord also, because they believe all the scripture offers.


    The concept of Federal Headship seems fine when all are represented by the two federal heads, so why do Calvinists insist Christ doesn't represent everyone?

    Because the scripture teaches otherwise....all who remain in adam die the second death....Christ did not take on the seed of Adam.....he took upon himself the seed of Abraham;



    Calvinists insist this would lead to universalism, but that is NOT true if the imputation of that representative is CONDITIONAL.

    Because the cross work was perfect ,actual and definate...there is no need to entertain a conditional anything...Jesus did a perfect work,once for all time.

    Our being condemned is conditioned upon our sinning.

    No it is not conditional..it is actual in the first adam rom 3:23



    As Paul CLEARLY states in Rom 5:12: Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned.

    All sinned at a point in time as adam sinned we sinned in him....as long as you deny this,you will not have a correct view of the cross. We sinned in adam, and we sin in our own experience....Paul did clearly explain this ...but several on BB continue to miss this teaching and repeat error after error because of it.

    In the same way, our being justified is conditioned upon our faith...as the verses above indicate.

    wrong for the same reasons.

    But, we are ALL represented by BOTH Federal HEADS, not just one of them. That is the biblical view and it is fair.
    [/QUOTE]

    This is an unbiblical view . What God has chosen to do in Christ is fairGen18;25....again you do not understand the all spoken of ...paul made it clear just in case some missed it as you have here when he said this in 1cor15:

    not the same all;

    in adam=all natural men
    in Christ= all born from above spiritual men

     
  9. preacher4truth

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    How is that fair? Seriously? God didn't have to save any person. This "being fair or not" is the foundation of many things for non-cals, and becomes the driving force and deciding factor to some of their logical conclusions of theology. It falls into the "That isn't fair" category for them, concerning election, predestination, Sovereignty. He came to save His people from their sins.
     
    #9 preacher4truth, Nov 15, 2011
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  10. convicted1

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    Were you Johnny Carson's "double" at any point in your life?? You nailed this one!! O' Great Carnack(sp?) :D
     
  11. quantumfaith

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    Convicted, I was born at night....but not last night. :) This (fairness) is one of those "talking points" that gets argued in these debates often. Here is the principle...(as I see it).

    God is infinite and sovereign. He, because He is who He is, "can" do however he pleases. He has chosen to reveal aspects of His character and nature to us in nature and His word. A clearly revealed part of that nature is Justice (fairness). He is the expression of ultimate and consummate justice. He answers to no one. It seems to me, innate to humankind, is this concept of justice (fairness) as we see expressed the world over in the form of civil laws. I (myself) believe it to be a small part of the imago dei we are endowed with from God.

    Often in these debates each side of the debate will over accentuate and over exaggerate the position(s) of the other in an effort to score imaginary points. (Both sides are prone to do this).
     
  12. psalms109:31

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    It is the best to say all men, than all sorts of men or from all nation have sin the same goes with Jesus it is all men in Jesus will be made alive not limited to all sorts of men or men from all nations.

    It is a calling for all men to come to Christ because we find in Him no one can pluck us out of His hands.

    The opportunity isn't limited for all sorts of men or men from all tribes but for all men. There is a reason why God chose who He did to translate the Holy Bible and when He did.

    We know what happened to the one who carried the ark of the covenant wrong.

    1 Chronicles 13:
    9 When they came to the threshing floor of Kidon, Uzzah reached out his hand to steady the ark, because the oxen stumbled. 10 The LORD’s anger burned against Uzzah, and he struck him down because he had put his hand on the ark. So he died there before God.

    All scripture points us to Jesus not away from Him.
     
    #12 psalms109:31, Nov 15, 2011
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  13. 12strings

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    From Skan...
    Just a point of clarification: I fail to see in your OP where any verse you quoted indicates the condition of faith.


    Also, you are making a false dichotomy between Cals who say all does not mean all, and non-cals who say all does mean all.

    In reality, Both sides agree that there is SOME limitation or condition on verse 18 "just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men."

    These verses could at first be taken to say that Christ does indeed bring life for all men, but we must look elsewhere in scriptures to clarify that in fact, not all are brought life, but only those who recieve it.

    So even non-cals say this "ALL" does not mean all, but rather "all who believe and recieve christ."
     
  14. psalms109:31

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    People change all when it doesn't fit in their belief system. Those who believe the scripture the way it states all in Adam will die all IN Christ will be made alive. No one apart from Christ who has not accepted Christ wil live. Not certain people from different tribes but all who come to Christ total dependent on His finished work. Those who trust in the Lord will not be put to shame.
     
    #14 psalms109:31, Nov 15, 2011
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  15. Greektim

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    Ding ding... we have a winner.
     
  16. JesusFan

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    Apostle Paul point here is that Adam failed to keep God test, sinned, and brought physical/spiritual ruin upon ALL men, as ALL have sinned and fallen short of glory of God..

    Jesus passed the test, and His obedience brought delierence and salvation from fall of Adam, and ALL those found 'IN Him" will share thosebenfits...

    ALL are physically born, so partake of same judgement God pronounded upon Adam, while just "some" get saved and partake of benefits of being "in Christ!"
     
  17. Skandelon

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    Yet you affirm the condition when you write, "we must look elsewhere in scriptures to clarify that in fact, not all are brought life, but only those who recieve it."

    Not exactly. Arminians and some Calvinists (C. Hodge, Dabney, AA Hodge, Shedd, and some argue Calvin himself etc) believe that the work of Christ did satisfy the demands of justice for every person. This, what is meant by bringing life to all. It doesn't mean all will be saved, but that all have been brought the opportunity for life through faith. In that sense, Christ did most certainly represent all people and provide perfect satisfaction for all sin.

    You can be brought life and refuse it so as to die in your rebellion receiving just penalty for your unbelief.

    As explained above, that is not necessarily true. We really do believe Christ represented all mankind on the cross in that no one has anything standing in the way of salvation save his unbelief. Some dismiss this view because they think it must mean universalism, but that ignores the condition of faith through which the grace of salvation is applied. So, the justice of ones sin may be satisfied, and the legal impediments removed without being born again and saved. He still must believe.

    "As no man is excluded from calling upon God, the gate of salvation is set open to all men; neither is there any other thing which keepeth us back from entering in, save only our own unbelief." - John Calvin
     
  18. psalms109:31

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    When i was little i believed when i seen all men or world it was saying all and the world have an opportunity through the Gospel of Jesus Christ not all will be saved.
     
  19. JesusFan

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    not JUST unbelief that condemns us, its the fact that we are ALL in Adam, all sinners who have 'freely" chosen to rebel against God and His ways...

    regardless IF we reject Jesus, STILL have sin debt remaining that ONLY gets expunge when One turns to Christ and gets saved!
     

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