Feeding 5,000 (more or less)...

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Rubato 1, Mar 26, 2008.

  1. Rubato 1

    Rubato 1
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2006
    Messages:
    1,167
    Likes Received:
    0
    I find it interesting that preachers, in speaking about the 'feeding of the 5,000', often pause a moment to comment on how it is likely that there was really such-and-such number of people there in probability because it says 'besides women and children.'

    My first reaction is 'what, the number 5,000 is not miraculous enough for you; you have to make it 15,000 or 20,000 or some other ridiculous number to be satisfied?'

    My second reaction is that since Jesus went to the other side of the sea, the women and children that were there were of a negligible number because they were either locals or the few who had the strength (and time) to follow Jesus that far. This is why the scripture only refers to them as 'besides women and children.'

    What are your thoughts and is it possible (probable?) that there were really tens of thousands there?

    I bring this up because this happened at a church which shall remain unnamed last Sunday...
     
  2. webdog

    webdog
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2005
    Messages:
    24,691
    Likes Received:
    0
    I believe there could have been numbers in the five figures. I agree that 'only' 5000 is still a grand miracle, but people (and pastors) want to get their facts and figures correct, so if it states 5000 besides women and children, we tend to want to 'guess-timate' roughly how many people could have been present.
     
  3. exscentric

    exscentric
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 24, 2004
    Messages:
    4,253
    Likes Received:
    16
    'besides women and children.'

    Since a pastor teaches the Word and the phrase is in the Word it ought to be dealt with as best the pastor can. The Holy Spirit included it for a purpose I would think.

    If it had been me fishing a croud of three would have been a miracle.:laugh:
     
  4. skypair

    skypair
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2006
    Messages:
    4,657
    Likes Received:
    0
    Rubato, I got great, wonderful news for you --- the miracle is a SIGN, John 20:30-31! FIVE is a church number -- in this case, a sign of the church that was "left behind" (Mt 25:1-13). What are the loaves and fishes? Five BARLEY loaves are Gentile churches who disbelieved until the rapture. Then, like the 5 foolish virgins (and Laodicea, Rev 3:18), they "went and bought" -- they BELIEVED too late! Witnesses! But the 2 fishes? The 2 witnesses, Moses and Elijah of Rev 11! Loaves and fishes "broken" --- MARTYRED!! 12 baskets left? Still 12 tribes will of Israel survive. We KNOW this -- at LEAST the 144,000 of the 12 tribes survive!!

    skypair
     
    #4 skypair, Mar 27, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 27, 2008
  5. Outsider

    Outsider
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2008
    Messages:
    268
    Likes Received:
    0
    I'm almost too afraid to ask, but what do you think the miracle of Christ feeding the 4,000, besides women and children, signify (Mat 15:32-38)?
     
  6. chuck2336

    chuck2336
    Expand Collapse
    Member

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2007
    Messages:
    587
    Likes Received:
    2

    I was going t ask that! You beat me to it!
     
  7. skypair

    skypair
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2006
    Messages:
    4,657
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ha-ha! It is John, "The Revelator," that gave the sign miracles as he said in John 20:30. The miracle in Matthew falls under the heading of "And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen." John 21:25

    Yet if you want an interpretation by extension, I would say that the 7 loaves are the 7 churches and the "few lilttle fishes" might point to the disciples. Four is the number of completion and 1000's seems to symbolize "multitudes" so I would guess that the church is complete and past (7 baskets here being also "broken") before the leaven of the Pharisees (of which Jesus said "beware," Mt 16) in the tribulation comes.

    However, the order of these 2 events (5000, then 4000) in Matthew seems to be reversed and, unless Jesus was here looking backward (that there was the leaven, then the church, then the trib 5000), I am not as eager to interpret Matthew in the same way I do John where we are told the miracles are signs.

    skypair
     
  8. LeBuick

    LeBuick
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2006
    Messages:
    11,537
    Likes Received:
    0
    Shows what a sexist society existed during bible times. I know someone disagreed with me when I explained the woman's position in bible times but the middle eastern cultrue in general doesn't give much value to the best thing God gave Man.
     
  9. Rubato 1

    Rubato 1
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2006
    Messages:
    1,167
    Likes Received:
    0
    How do you know they weren't right and we're not wrong, esp. if it is in the Bible?
    :laugh:
     
  10. The Archangel

    The Archangel
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2003
    Messages:
    2,444
    Likes Received:
    0
    This is just silly.

    The Archangel
     
  11. tinytim

    tinytim
    Expand Collapse
    <img src =/tim2.jpg>

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2003
    Messages:
    11,250
    Likes Received:
    0
    Uh huh.... yeah.... sure...

    Proof please.
     
  12. skypair

    skypair
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2006
    Messages:
    4,657
    Likes Received:
    0
    I guess I should say (as so many here do), "I don't like your tone, tt."

    So, since I doubt you are doing anything but taunting, I'll be brief. Five foolish virgins? Five churches with MK rather than heavenly kingdom/NJ promises in Rev 2-3? From whence come the 5th seal martyrs to heaven?

    skypair
     
  13. tinytim

    tinytim
    Expand Collapse
    <img src =/tim2.jpg>

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2003
    Messages:
    11,250
    Likes Received:
    0
    Careful, ME has been a banned heresy here... this smacks of their teaching..
     
  14. Outsider

    Outsider
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2008
    Messages:
    268
    Likes Received:
    0
    Don't you know that all scripture relates to revelations?
    They are all some kind of post-, mid- or pre-trib.
    Jesus wouldn't just feed people because they are hungry :jesus:

    Sorry skypair, just having a little fun.
    I do think we sometimes try to put too much into some things.
     
  15. skypair

    skypair
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2006
    Messages:
    4,657
    Likes Received:
    0
    ????????? :saint: Don't you know better me better than that?

    skypair
     
  16. David Lamb

    David Lamb
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2006
    Messages:
    2,982
    Likes Received:
    0
    Could you explain (with scripture references of course) how you can be so sure that five is "a sign of the church that was left behind", that the two fish represent Moses and Elijah, that the twelve baskets of fragments represent the twelve tribes of Israel? Thank you.
     
  17. tinytim

    tinytim
    Expand Collapse
    <img src =/tim2.jpg>

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2003
    Messages:
    11,250
    Likes Received:
    0
    I like to think I do..:laugh:

    Can you explain David's answer...

    I just don't relate everything in the Bible to prophecy...
     
  18. Allan

    Allan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2006
    Messages:
    6,888
    Likes Received:
    0
    I've seen you go out on a limb before Sky, but honestly...where are you getting this stuff from??

    There isn't anything I see in the passages you listed nor the brief discription you give, that connect them biblically to one another. I haven't even heard any hyper-disy teaching stating the above.. maybe I'm due for a review :)

    For me, I just don't see the logic, or biblical proof to your accertion in the above. And in all fairness (though it isn't a commonly held Dispy view) the problem might lie in your needing to elaborate quite a bit more. So if you would please......
     
    #18 Allan, Apr 1, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 1, 2008
  19. skypair

    skypair
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2006
    Messages:
    4,657
    Likes Received:
    0
    You're right because it 1) it fits in with 6 other "sign miracles" and 2) is connected to a very close examination of Rev 2-3 -- which I can't do now cause I'm going to play golf. :thumbs:

    skypair
     
  20. skypair

    skypair
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2006
    Messages:
    4,657
    Likes Received:
    0
    First, from the 5 foolsih virgins in Mt 25:1-13. I believe that the event posed there is the rapture -- that 5 virgins had no oil/Holy Spirit and were not taken to the wedding in heaven -- that they toiled on earth to "go and buy" (referring directly to Laodicea, Rev 3:18) -- but there is not more rapture/access to the wedding -- they are told to "watch for the Son of man," an OT term for the coming of Messiah at the end of the trib.

    Five are the churches left behind in Rev 2-3 which is quite easily shown by Smyrna and Philadelphia being the only churches with the possibility of receiving CROWNS. As we all atest, crowns are received only be the church only at the Bema post-rapture 1Thes 2:19. The crown that Phillies might lose is the "crown of righteousness" for those who "love [Christ's] appearing" -- the rapture. Some will lose their crown due to false eschatology or backsliding, I believe.

    There's actually 2 things in the passage that point me to this. 1) The loaves are "barley loaves." Barley (vs. wheat) was the common grain representing the Gentiles (see also Rev 6:6 for another application). 2) Fish represented Israel and 2, of course, the 2 witnesses that should come, Rev 11. Similarly, the woman is not mixing leaven into "wheat" in Mt 13:33 but into "meal," barley and wheat combined.

    This is to designate that they are recovered (bread and fish) from an OT dispensation/gospel, the tribulation, as part of Israel.

    I know -- tell me I have a vivid imagination and chaulk it up to boredom if you want. :laugh: No, there's more and it fits well biblically.

    skypair
     

Share This Page

Loading...