Featured Fermented and Unfermented Wine

Have it your way.

Similiarly, there is no indication that "wine" ever means grape juice.

And there is no indication that anyone boiled their grape juice.

Yep, plain old wine is all the Bible talks about. Fermented and well refined.

 

They boiled their wines before the wines could ferment. Since yeast is killed at 140° according to the master baker at LeSaffre, the kosher wines that the Jews drank would not ferment as the yeast was killed off.

 

There is more to show wine could mean grape juice than you want to admit.

Isaiah speaks of wine in the cluster. Proverbs speaks of wine in the press.

 

WHERE IS YOUR BIBLE REFERENCE? You can not demand such a thing of me and then not follow your own advice. You use whatever it takes to suport your ideas. Can you not see how inconsistent you are?

The Jews drank REAL WINE. It is discussed IN DETAIL in the Talmud. There have been big arguments since the nineteenth century over whether or not juice could even be allowed at Pesach.

Anyway, you have yet to show a singe Bible reference for anything you have stated. They boiled down their wine.. CITE THE SCRIPTURE!!!!

They did not drink fermented wine... CITE THE SCRIPTURE!!!!

You can not, because you are basing your theories on the gnostic heresy that substances are evil unto themselves. This is completely contradictory to what Jesus said, "Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man." (Matthew 15:11).

Perhaps you can come to Cali, and we can discuss this over a nice merlot.

 

His

History records that they boiled their wines.

Perhaps you can find a historical account of them calling grape juice honey?

 

This is because it begins fermenting immediately. Wine is still called wine in the press, and it is still wine!

There really is no point in discussing this with people who refuse to see the plain truth of scripture.

 

It is still called dibs even today!!!

I cited the reference and explained the etymology. Perhaps you should actually do a word study.

Once again, where is the Bible reference that shows that anyone boiled their wine?

You have none.

 

"....It is not known from whence the ancient Jewish authorities derived this claim; there are no records concerning "boiled wine" and its fitness for use in the cults of any of the religions of the peoples surrounding ancient Israel."
http://www.angelfire.com/pa2/passover/kosher-wine/

You are correct.

 

Plutarch, in the first century, wrote:

Notice that even before fermentation, it was regarded as wine.

Nearly 600 years earlier, Isaiah wrote:

There is not only historical evidence that unfermented juice was regarded as wine, but also Scripture that attests to the fact that the unfermented juice of the grape was called wine.

 

You will NEVER win anyone over with Merlot!! Repent sir, of this as the truth of Scripture will be compromised...a nice Bordeaux..(oops Meritage in Cali)...or Possibly Cab Sauv....even a Spanish Tempranillo! But merlot? For shame. :laugh:

 

If you read on down in the article the wine juice is fermented after being heated; and the heating/boiling/pastuerization process is strictly for RITUAL purposes.

 

Fred, this has probably already been asked, but since the Jews of Bible times had no refrigeration or modern canning techniques, just how many days out of the year were they able to drink non-alcoholic grape juice? I assure you it wasn't many at all. Non-alcoholic or non-vinegar grape juice could not have been a year round commodity.

 

I think someone gave a link to a site that gave several methods of preservation earlier in this thread, kyredneck.

Searching the internet on alcohol, I have found many references stated how wine was kept unfermented for a year or more at a time. Perhaps you could research that as well?

 

I'm not going to look for it.

The question is, 'Is there evidence that the Jews did indeed employ these several methods of preservation of grape juice'? I personally think the notion that they did is SILLY. Their wine was no differerent than the Greeks or Romans or any other region, it was preserved through fermentation either into wine or vinegar. The huge fermentation pits unearthed in archeaological digs in Israel verifies this. Jews made wine, alcoholic wine just as was the norm everywhere else, and still is.

 

Yes, the notion is silly, indeed! :applause:

 

Genesis 40:10-13 And in the vine were three branches: and it was as though it budded, and her blossoms shot forth; and the clusters thereof brought forth ripe grapes: And Pharaoh's cup was in my hand: and I took the grapes, and pressed them into Pharaoh's cup, and I gave the cup into Pharaoh's hand. And Joseph said unto him, This is the interpretation of it: The three branches are three days: Yet within three days shall Pharaoh lift up thine head, and restore thee unto thy place: and thou shalt deliver Pharaoh's cup into his hand, after the former manner when thou wast his butler.

From the Pulpit Commentary.

 

I will repent of my transgression. Merlot was the first thing that came to mind. It was from twenty pounds of merlots that I did my first experiements with fermentation and came to the truth that the Bible speaks positively of fermentation. It happened so naturally and so easily that I knew the teetoallism nonsense was just that - nonsense.

However, the wine I have most recently used in the Lord's Supper is a Zinfandel. I will definitely offer a nice meritage from Arrow Creek, grown not too far from where I am a church planter. I hope that my repentant spirit compensates for my transgression.

 

The Question

The question that needs to be asked and answered is, “Does the Bible condone the use of alcohol as something that God has given to man for his benefit?” It is obvious that the Bible speaks of wine and that in an alcoholic way, but when the Bible uses the term wine does it always mean alcoholic wine?

The word wine in the Bible is the Hebrew word “yayin”. The advocates of fermented or intoxicating wine only, often state their position this way, “When the word is the same, the thing is the same; if, therefore, wine means intoxicating when applied to the case of Noah and Lot, it must have meant the same when used by David in the Psalm or when Jesus turned the water to wine in John chapter 2.”

In looking at this we need to view some counter-statements on this subject. Studious and learned men have made these quotes for our consideration. Dr. Ure says, “Juice when newly expressed, and before it has begun to ferment, is called must, and in common language New wine.” Chambers Cyclopedia states, “Sweet wine is that which has not yet worked or fermented.”

It is obvious that there are two kinds of wine referred to in the Bible. One is fermented and the other non-fermented. I refer you to the book “Bible Wines” for many more quotes on this fact. This fact can also be proved by the laws of fermentation as we will see. In the next lesson we will see that the laws of fermentation made the best wines to be unfermented and the hurtful wine to be fermented. This concludes lesson one. Make sure that you have answered all of the questions for your certificate of completion. May God bless you as you seek for the truth.

The Laws of Fermentation

The laws of fermentation are fixed facts, always operating in the same way, and requiring the same conditions everywhere. The facts are:

1. There must be sugar and yeast present.

2. The temperature should not be below 50 degrees or above 70 or 75 degrees.

3. The juice must be of a certain consistence. For example, too much sugar, too little sugar, too thick, too thin, too much water, too little water, etc.

4. The quantity of yeast must be well regulated.

When we look at these laws we understand that fermentation into alcohol is not a natural thing but is man-made. Dr. Pereira has said, “Grape juice does not ferment in the grapes itself,..” In Bible lands, the temperature is very hot during the time that grapes are harvested. Heat is an essential element in the production of large quantities of sugar. It is a well-established fact that in hot climates where the sugar content is high, the fermentation process cannot proceed on its’ own but the opposite will be a rotting of the fruit.

A Mohammedan traveler in A.D. 850 stated that “palm wine, if drunk fresh, is sweet like honey; but if kept it turns to vinegar.” Being the hot climate that it is, Palestine has the ability to produce tremendous crops of grapes. It has been stated that “in Palestine, even at the present day, the clusters of the vine grow to the weight of twelve pounds…” “Clusters weighing from twenty to forty pounds are still seen in various parts of Syria.” Because of the hot climate and the sweet grapes, chemical science prohibits the fermentation of its harvest.

There are at least four ways that fermentation can be prevented.

1. Grape juice will not ferment when the air is completely excluded.

2. By boiling down the juice it will not ferment.

3. If the juice is filtered to remove the yeast it will be impossible for it to ferment.

4. By lowering the temperature to 45 degrees.

Did the Ancients Preserve the Juices Sweet?

It is a well known fact that the ancient people used boiling as away to preserve their grape juice sweet. Please note that when juice is fermented it is no longer sweet because the sugar is totally used up in the fermentation process.

It is well known that boiling was used to preserve the grape juice.

Archbishop Potter states, “The Lacedaemonians used to boil their wines upon the fire till the fifth part was consumed…” Others have made similar comments to prove that boiling was a common way to preserve the wine (grape juice) from fermenting. When juice is made thick it can never be made into an alcoholic beverage. Aristotle said , “The wine of Arcadia was so thick that it was necessary to scrape it from the skin bottles in which it was contained..” We have already seen that grape juice called wine in the Bible when made too thick will not ferment. This in itself is proof that all references to wine in the scripture is not fermented wine but can also be grape juice in its’ sweet state.

(Excerpt from a four part study on Dr. William Patton's excellent book "Bible Wines: Or The Laws of Fermentation and Wines of the Ancients"--Lesson 1)

Bible Wines: Lesson 1

 

Wine is wine. Wine is a fermented drink. It is an oxymoron statement to say fermented wine.

Yayin means “wine.” (1)This is the usual Hebrew word for fermented grape.
That is according to Strong’s.

New wine is just that, new wine. It is wine that is new. It is newly fermented grape.

Sweet Wine
Web definitions
o The sweetness of a wine is defined by the level of sugar in the wine.

To remove the alcohol content out of wine, would no longer qualify the wine as “wine.”

It is not called wine, but remains grape juice and is called “grape juice.”

If the juice is not fermented, it is still juice.

Then it will still be a juice and not a wine.

Will it not still be juice?

Have you not ever heard of sweet wine?

Again, then it is grape juice and not wine. You call it grape juice here yourself

 

It's simply amazing how far some people will go to justify their drinking of beverage alcohol.