"fine linen" Rev. 19:8

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by Psalm145 3, Jan 15, 2002.

  1. Psalm145 3

    Psalm145 3
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    -- King James Bible
    Revelation 19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

    Amen! Thank God for the fine linen! Those of us who are saved are already ready for the marriage supper of the Lamb.

    This verse is corrupted bigtime in the modern versions.
    -- New American Standard
    Revelation 19:8 And it was given to her to clothe herself in fine linen, bright and clean; for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.

    NIV and NKJV say the same thing. The Living Bible says, (Fine linen represents the good deeds done by the people of God.)

    Brethren, we are in big trouble if the fine linen is our own righteous acts, "all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags" (Isaiah 64:6).

    Why can't people see the truth about Bible versions? It is so clear! How many examples of false doctrine do you need to open your eyes? Come on guys, get on your knees before the Lord and ask Him to help you see the truth. NIV, NASV, NKJV and NLT are counterfeit Bibles.
     
  2. Chris Temple

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    I am no textual scholar, but according to Strong's both the KJV and the NASB are translating the word dikaioµma; (1344); meaning an ordinance, a sentence of acquittal or condemnation, a righteous deed

    The KJV appears to be the translation in error here, as dikaioµma is certainly an act (of God).

    [ January 15, 2002: Message edited by: Chris Temple ]
     
  3. Bro. Curtis

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    Stick to your guns, Psalm 145_3. [​IMG]

    These modern versions are, at best, watered down. Let them mock. KJVOFIB...that's the only way for me. They will call us cultists, militant, ignorant, non-educated, hard-headed, but the PLAIN TRUTH IS, we have the preserved word of God in our KJV. It disheartens me to see us take so much abuse & ridicule, not for my sake, but for the people who do it to us. I'm starting to think I have to start fighting to keep my KJV. But it is worth fighting for. I have two, maybe I should get a couple more. It's starting to look like we may not have access to it for long.
     
  4. Chris Temple

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mr. Curtis:


    These modern versions are, at best, watered down. Let them mock. KJVOFIB...that's the only way for me. They will call us cultists, militant, ignorant, non-educated, hard-headed, but the PLAIN TRUTH IS, we have the preserved word of God in our KJV. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Do not the NKJV, LITV, MKJV, KJ2000, KJ21, YLT, Webster95, (all Bibles based upon the very same texts as the KJV) contain the preserved word of God? What of Bibles prior to the KJV (Geneva, Bishops, etc)? Did they not contain the preserved word of God, or was only the KJV perfected in 1611 - oops - 1614 - er - 1769?
     
  5. DocCas

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    Actually, this is not a translational problem but an interpretational problem.

    The KJV says: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

    The ASV says: for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.

    The NASB says: for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.

    The NIV says: Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of the saints.

    The NKJV says: for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.

    The Greek says: το γαρ βθσσινον τα δικαιωματα εστι των αγιων. The word δικαιωματα means "a righteous act or deed." Note the word is plural.

    Contrast this reading with the "righteousness of God" as found in Romans 1:17; Romans 3:5; Romans 3:21; Romans 3:22; and 2 Corinthians 5:21, among others.

    What seems to be meant here is not the imputed righteousness of God which we obtain by faith, but the personal righteousness (our acts, works, deeds, manner of life) which is the personal righteousness which results from the imputed righteousness of God.

    I would not belabor the point, and nit pick this verse to death for, in my not entirely humble opinion, all the various readings of the English versions are saying exactly the same thing. We will all be in heaven as a result of the imputed righteousness of God, but we will be adorned in our personal righteousness. [​IMG]
     
  6. Psalm145 3

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Actually, this is not a translational problem but an interpretational problem. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Maybe this is the wrong forum for this discussion, but I think the way Rev. 19:8 is translated has a lot to do with the way it is interpreted. If you read the passage and emphasize the "righteousness of saints" it takes on a whole new meaning that I don't agree with. I believe it should be read like this: ...the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. Not ...the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. Do you see what I mean? It makes a big difference.

    I just can't believe that some people like Pastors and gifted teachers will have on better robes than the "average" Christian. The only way to wash our filthy rags and make them white is in the blood of the Lamb (Rev. 7:14).

    When a person gets saved, he is married to Christ, (Rom. 7:4), they already have the wedding garments on!

    Isaiah 61:10 I will greatly rejoice in the Lord, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom decketh himself with ornaments, and as a bride adorneth herself with her jewels.
     
  7. DocCas

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    I disagree. I don't believe the saved person who is careless about his Christian walk will be as well clothed in Heaven as the Godly saint who gave his whole life in the service of the King. I do not believe obedience is optional, nor do I believe obedience will go unrewarded. [​IMG]

    There is a difference between imputed righteousness and personal righteousness. One is the righteousness of God, but faith, the other is the righteousness of the saints, by faith. [​IMG]
     
  8. Chris Temple

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    There are different levels of rewards in heaven, and different degrees of punishment in hell. But as Ps 145 3 said, this is the wrong forum for discussion of that topic [​IMG]
     
  9. This Little Light

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    There are some really good Bible Societies around that only print the KJV. I recommend ordering from them so as not to support the backsliding compromising bookstore that print signs like "KJV - Grade 12 Reading" when the Flesch-Kincaid Grade Level Indicators prove that the KJV is written on average at Grade 5.8, the NIV at Grade 8.4, the NASB at Grade 6.1 and the NKJV at Grade 6.9.

    You see the KJV according to them uses hard words like 'carried away' instead of the much easier word 'deportation' found in the NASB. And of course what Kindergartener could ever be expected to read the word 'Fan' in the KJV when there is the much easier to read NASB that uses the word 'winnowing fork'. (Luke 3:17, Matt 3:12)
    (There are many many more)

    If you want to support a good KJVO Bible society check out the Grace Way Bible Society in Canada. Their website is still setup at their old name http://www.trinitarian.com . They split from the Trinitarian Bible Society in the UK because they wanted to stay KJV Only and the UK wanted to start selling the perversions.

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mr. Curtis:
    Stick to your guns, Psalm 145_3. [​IMG]

    These modern versions are, at best, watered down. Let them mock. KJVOFIB...that's the only way for me. They will call us cultists, militant, ignorant, non-educated, hard-headed, but the PLAIN TRUTH IS, we have the preserved word of God in our KJV. It disheartens me to see us take so much abuse & ridicule, not for my sake, but for the people who do it to us. I'm starting to think I have to start fighting to keep my KJV. But it is worth fighting for. I have two, maybe I should get a couple more. It's starting to look like we may not have access to it for long.
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
     
  10. Pastor Larry

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Psalm145 3:
    If you read the passage and emphasize the "righteousness of saints" it takes on a whole new meaning that I don't agree with. I believe it should be read like this: ...the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. Not ...the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Herein lies the problem. What you believe, agree with, and think is not the issue. God does not care what you think and believe. What he cares about is what he wrote. Thomas is most certainly right on this one.
     
  11. Pastor Larry

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by This Little Light:
    And of course what Kindergartener could ever be expected to read the word 'Fan' in the KJV when there is the much easier to read NASB that uses the word 'winnowing fork'. (Luke 3:17, Matt 3:12)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    This is a great example. What kindergartner would understand that "fan" actually means winnowing fork rather than something that you turn on when you are hot?

    To make the opposite point, how many people would read 2 Thess 2:7 and understand that "lets" means "restrains"? Here you have a case where the KJV gives the exact opposite meaning of the verse because the word has changed meanings in 400 years. In modern language, "let" means to allow; in 1611, "let" meant to restrain. The meanings are opposite the clarity of God's word for this generation has been compromised.

    As you say, (There are many many more).
     
  12. This Little Light

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
    This is a great example. What kindergartner would understand that "fan" actually means winnowing fork rather than something that you turn on when you are hot?
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    How about a kindergartner with God fearing parents that will teach and instruct according to God's will after they read the verse outloud.

    It is very easy to pick out what the tool 'fan' is used for if you read the whole verse.

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>
    To make the opposite point, how many people would read 2 Thess 2:7 and understand that "lets" means "restrains"? Here you have a case where the KJV gives the exact opposite meaning of the verse because the word has changed meanings in 400 years. In modern language, "let" means to allow; in 1611, "let" meant to restrain. The meanings are opposite the clarity of God's word for this generation has been compromised.

    As you say, (There are many many more).[/QB]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
    Once again if you read the context there is no problem understanding the meaning of the word.

    I really don't understand why everyone has such a hard time understanding the KJV?

    As in the Catholic Church teachings it seems that you believe only well educated and select people have the power to understand God's word. Us common folk don't really have that gift and depend completely on learned people to tell us what is the Word of God.

    Is this not usurping the authority that God's Word has and placing that authority with the textual critic?

    Maybe the trouble is too much education and a self confidence that is blinding people to the simple truth of God's Word. Romans 1:22,23 "Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man . . .".

    Maybe the problem is too much human education and pride and not enough Bible education.

    Reading more books about the Bible than the Bible itself !!

    [ January 15, 2002: Message edited by: This Little Light ]
     
  13. ChristianCynic

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    &lt; How about a kindergartner with God fearing parents that will teach and instruct according to God's will after they read the verse outloud. &gt; ...
    &lt; Us common folk don't really have that gift and depend completely on learned people to tell us what is the Word of God. &gt;

    Are "us common folk" the kindergartner-level minded ones, or are parents the "learned people" who "tell us what is the Word of God?"

    &lt; "Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man . . .". &gt;

    Do you claim to wise or unwise for your KJVO claims you profess?
     
  14. Forever settled in heaven

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    o yes, u'd know, wldn't u! :)

    the Merriam-Webster definition does list "fan," but look:

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Main Entry: 1fan
    Pronunciation: 'fan
    Function: noun
    Etymology: Middle English, from Old English fann, from Latin vannus -- more at WINNOW
    Date: before 12th century
    1 : any of various devices for winnowing grain
    2 : an instrument for producing a current of air: as a : a device for cooling the person that is usually shaped like a segment of a circle and is composed of material (as feathers or paper) mounted on thin rods or slats moving about a pivot so that the device may be closed compactly when not in use b : a device that consists of a series of vanes radiating from a hub rotated on its axle by a motor c slang : an airplane propeller
    3 a : something resembling an open fan b : a gently sloping fan-shaped body of detritus; especially : ALLUVIAL FAN
    - fan·like /-"lIk/ adjective <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    observations:

    1. the approach of the Bible authors themselves is instructive: they did not assume/demand of their readers a command of 900 years of etymology (e.g. fr 12th to 21st century!) in their choice of language.

    2. for those who live in a modern urban culture w little knowledge of rural (n possibly obsolete) agricultural implements (and this includes the majority of EDUCATED English speakers), the term "fan" is immediately misleading.


    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by This Little Light:
    Maybe the problem is too much human education and pride and not enough Bible education.
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
     
  15. This Little Light

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ChristianCynic:
    Are "us common folk" the kindergartner-level minded ones, or are parents the "learned people" who "tell us what is the Word of God?"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
    It is my duty as a parent to instruct my children, God commands it and I take His Word seriously and literaly.

    Proverbs 22:6 "Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it."

    That is why we homeschool and teach our children the TRUTH about Gods trustworthy, inspired, preserved Word. I am not going to entrust the prescious children God entrusted me with to worldly teaching.

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Do you claim to wise or unwise for your KJVO claims you profess?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    2Corinthians 1:12 "For our rejoicing is this, the testimony of our conscience, that in simplicity and godly sincerity, not with fleshly wisdom, but by the grace of God, we have had our conversation in the world, and more abundantly to you-ward."

    I do not trust in my own wisdom but the wisdom of GOD and in HIS power to preserve HIS WORD not in fleshly wisdom that teaches me to trust in mans ability.

    [ January 16, 2002: Message edited by: This Little Light ]
     
  16. Bro. Curtis

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    AMEN. Well said TLL. [​IMG]
     
  17. ChristianCynic

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    &lt; I do not trust in my own wisdom but the wisdom of GOD and in HIS power to preserve HIS WORD not in fleshly wisdom that teaches me to trust in mans ability. &gt;

    The KJV was translated and published by a bunch of men in whom you trust. God did not inspire the biblical writers to use English, therefore any English 'version' or translation came from the work of man, and scripture contains no instructions to make any translations.

    And anyone who has been through these doctrinal discussions with more than passing attention before knows about code words and catch phrases. "I trust in the wisdom of God" is that codified way of saying "I've got wisdom and you ain't." You don't say it that way because of the verse you quoted, "...professing themselves to be wise..." so you code it.
     
  18. This Little Light

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ChristianCynic:
    &lt; I do not trust in my own wisdom but the wisdom of GOD and in HIS power to preserve HIS WORD not in fleshly wisdom that teaches me to trust in mans ability. &gt;

    The KJV was translated and published by a bunch of men in whom you trust. God did not inspire the biblical writers to use English, therefore any English 'version' or translation came from the work of man, and scripture contains no instructions to make any translations.

    And anyone who has been through these doctrinal discussions with more than passing attention before knows about code words and catch phrases. "I trust in the wisdom of God" is that codified way of saying "I've got wisdom and you ain't." You don't say it that way because of the verse you quoted, "...professing themselves to be wise..." so you code it.
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    What in the world are you talking about? Man you can't even quote scripture on a Baptist board without getting accused of "Secret Code Words". I didn't codify anything just gave the facts, God is Wise, I AM NOT. Therefore I will trust in GOD's wisdom and not my own or yours for that matter.
     
  19. Chris Temple

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by This Little Light:
    There are some really good Bible Societies around that only print the KJV. I recommend ordering from them so as not to support the backsliding compromising bookstore that print signs like "KJV - Grade 12 Reading" when the Flesch-Kincaid Grade Level Indicators prove that the KJV is written on average at Grade 5.8, the NIV at Grade 8.4, the NASB at Grade 6.1 and the NKJV at Grade 6.9.
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Can you cite your sources for these reading levels? All sources I have seen are more like KJV-12; NASB-11; NKJV-8 and NIV-7.
     
  20. This Little Light

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chris Temple:


    Can you cite your sources for these reading levels? All sources I have seen are more like KJV-12; NASB-11; NKJV-8 and NIV-7.
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    The Flesch-Kincaid research company's Grade Level Indicator examines the length of words and sentences, the number of paragraphs, and other language parameters in order to gauge the complexity of the written work.

    Their formula is: ((.39 x average number of words per sentence) + (11.8 x average number of syllables per word) - (15.59) = grade level).

    The results of this study can be found in the book called New Age Bible Versions which is downloadable at New Age Bible Versions

    [ January 16, 2002: Message edited by: This Little Light ]
     

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