1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Five Effects of seeing God as personal rather than absolutistic

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by ScottEmerson, Jun 8, 2002.

Top Posters
Page 3 of 3
  1. ScottEmerson

    ScottEmerson Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2002
    Messages:
    3,417
    Likes Received:
    0
    This is a standard Calvinist answer. "We can't understand it - It's a paradox!" There is no problem with the freewill position in saying that a perfect being could choose to be less than perfect, if freewill indeed means the choice to obey or disobey.

    There is a problem in consistent Calvinism. Consistent Calvinism has God as the author of evil, since everything has been initiated by him.
     
    #41 ScottEmerson, Jun 25, 2002
  2. ScottEmerson

    ScottEmerson Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2002
    Messages:
    3,417
    Likes Received:
    0
     
    #42 ScottEmerson, Jun 25, 2002
  3. ScottEmerson

    ScottEmerson Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2002
    Messages:
    3,417
    Likes Received:
    0
    And I would state that a sovereign God who in the way Calvinists would define "sovereign" would have to be the cause of evil in the world. How can you logically come to a infralapsarian conclusion? Either way, God decided that man should fall.

    "An infralapsarian view, it seems to us, has as a natural corollary the idea that when Adam fell, the natural world was therefore changed for the worse. According to that view, God had to change His building plans-His natural laws-to inject certain "natural calamities" after Adam fell." - From Progressive Calvinism

    That would be if I did not believe that God regenerates a man to the point where he can choose.

    Considering I've already got a new nature, there's no need to 'repent and believe' again.

    Dunno. I made a choice to follow. It's got to be a better deal to give Joe Blow a chance than to create him just for destruction. That would make me much "better" than him, too, don't ya think? (See the post above for an example of a Calvinist who insists that he has been loved especially - where logically the 'non-elect' are not.)

    In the same tone, here's a question for you: Why can't you escape the crutch of having to believe that God controls everything for you instead of realizing that God wants a personal relationship with you and he loved you so much to give you a genuine choice?
     
    #43 ScottEmerson, Jun 25, 2002
  4. russell55

    russell55 New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2002
    Messages:
    2,424
    Likes Received:
    0
    If initiating everything makes God the author of evil, then how do YOU get around God being the author of evil? At the very least, God got the whole ball rolling with His creative act. If He hadn't created, would there be evil?
     
    #44 russell55, Jun 25, 2002
  5. Baptist Believer

    Baptist Believer Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2002
    Messages:
    10,729
    Likes Received:
    787
    Faith:
    Baptist
    If initiating everything makes God the author of evil, then how do YOU get around God being the author of evil? At the very least, God got the whole ball rolling with His creative act. If He hadn't created, would there be evil?</font>[/QUOTE]God allowed for the possibility of evil when he created freedom for his creative creatures. Humankind, who in the image of God also create, create by our actions both good and evil. Humankind created evil. The fault is ours. We have a very real freedom to act (within the context of human frailties and material conditions), both to love God or reject Him. Doing things contrary to this reciprocal love for God and each other is sin.

    No conflict if you can come to terms with free will.
     
    #45 Baptist Believer, Jun 25, 2002
  6. russell55

    russell55 New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2002
    Messages:
    2,424
    Likes Received:
    0
    I agree that the fault is ours. But Scott seems to say that God simply initiating things makes Him the author of evil.

    If that's the case, then even the free will model of things makes God the author of evil, for as you say:

    But it is even more than allowing for the possibility of evil, for couldn't He foresee that giving people "freewill" would result in the fall? And yet, He chose to create man with "freewill" anyway, didn't He? God started the ball rolling, a ball which He knew, sooner rather than later, would result in mankind's sin.

    I don't see how this makes God any less the initiator of evil than the Calvinist model does. The Calvinist model doesn't say that God influenced Adam and Eve to sin, but rather that God decided to allow them to sin for a purpose.

    The only real difference I see between the two models of the origin of evil is that the purpose for allowing evil is different. In the free will model, the purpose in allowing evil is so that men would have free will. In the Calvinist model, part of the purpose for allowing evil is so that God could redeem mankind.

    But the mechanism (for lack of a better word) for the origin of evil is the same--a choice by God to allow it for a purpose.
     
    #46 russell55, Jun 25, 2002
  7. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2002
    Messages:
    42,002
    Likes Received:
    1,492
    Faith:
    Baptist
    A person is either regenerated(born again) or he is not. There is not such thing as being partially regenerated or partially born again.

    FYI, I do have a relationship with God - He is my Creator, I am His creature. He is the Potter, I am His clay. The rest of our relationship flows from this. [​IMG]

    One redeemed by Christ's blood,

    Ken
    Were it not for grace...
     
    #47 KenH, Jun 25, 2002
  8. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2002
    Messages:
    42,002
    Likes Received:
    1,492
    Faith:
    Baptist
    God did not decree the Fall - that is a major difference between supralapsarianism and infralapsarianism. That does not mean that God didn't know it would happen and had already decided how to deal with it.

    God is never taken by surprise by any event.

    One redeemed by Christ's blood,

    Ken
    Were it not for grace...
     
    #48 KenH, Jun 25, 2002
  9. Scott J

    Scott J Active Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2001
    Messages:
    8,462
    Likes Received:
    1
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The Bible teaches individual election of the saints (Romans 8 & 9).

    I consider myself Calvinist. However, I agree with you that God has allowed men a measure of free will. I believe in the perfect will of God and the permissive will of God. I think the Bible establishes both. Where I depart from you is on the question of which catagory salvation falls into.

    I accept the biblical premise that man is totally depraved and incapable of righteousness. The other 4 points logically progress from this truth. Arminianism must reject this premise in order to allow man enough good to possess saving faith.

    The elect are saved by the perfect will of God which He foreknew before the foundation of the world. The primary point isn't whether man has free will or not. The Bible teaches that we do. The truth of Calvinism lies in the fact that man will not deny himself and choose God.

    God does not author evil. He permits it in such a way as to contribute to His intended ends.
     
    #49 Scott J, Jun 25, 2002
  10. ScottEmerson

    ScottEmerson Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2002
    Messages:
    3,417
    Likes Received:
    0
    Not necessarily. Let's say I have a child. I can either force him to do evil, or I can give him a choice. If he disobeys, that's his own doing, not me as a parent.

    No, in the Calvinist model (from Calvin himself), God allowed evil so he could only save a few. For the rest, he allowed evil so they could be created to be damned.
     
    #50 ScottEmerson, Jun 25, 2002
  11. russell55

    russell55 New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2002
    Messages:
    2,424
    Likes Received:
    0
    Please show me where any Calvinist says God forced Adam to do evil--or, for that matter, that He forces anyone to do evil. Can you find any Calvinist who says Adam--or anyone else--didn't have a choice? Can you find any Calvinist who says that when anyone, including Adam, disobeys, it's not His own doing, but God's?

    Please notice that I wrote that part of His purpose for allowing evil is to redeem mankind. (And I don't believe it is only a few! Redeemed mankind will be too great to number.) I can only guess at the other reasons for allowing sin. I don't know the reason He created people who will be damned, but the freewill model has exactly the same problem.

    [ June 25, 2002, 10:32 PM: Message edited by: russell55 ]
     
    #51 russell55, Jun 25, 2002
(You must log in or sign up to post here.)
Page 3 of 3
Loading...