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FIVE POINT ARMINIAN

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by Brother James, Oct 5, 2005.

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  1. Brother James

    Brother James New Member

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    This little piece puts a pretty good contrast to the argument.
    http://www.reformed.org/calvinism/trf/part_6.html

    THE "FIVE POINTS" OF ARMINIANISM
    1. Free-Will or Human Ability

    Although human nature was seriously affected by the fall, man has not been left in a state of total spiritual helplessness. God graciously enables every sinner to repent and believe, but He does not interfere with man's freedom. Each sinner posses a free will, and his eternal destiny depends on how he uses it. Man's freedom consists of his ability to choose good over evil in spiritual matters; his will is not enslaved to his sinful nature. The sinner has the power to either cooperate with God's Spirit and be regenerated or resist God's grace and perish. The lost sinner needs the Spirit's assistance, but he does not have to be regenerated by the Spirit before he can believe, for faith is man's act and precedes the new birth. Faith is the sinner's gift to God; it is man's contribution to salvation.

    2. Conditional Election

    God's choice of certain individuals unto salvation before the foundation of the world was based upon His foreseeing that they would respond to His call. He selected only those whom He knew would of themselves freely believe the gospel. Election therefore was determined by or conditioned upon what man would do. The faith which God foresaw and upon which He based His choice was not given to the sinner by God (it was not created by the regenerating power of the Holy Spirit) but resulted solely from man's will. It was left entirely up to man as to who would believe and therefore as to who would be elected unto salvation. God chose those whom He knew would, of their own free will, choose Christ. Thus the sinner's choice of Christ, not God's choice of the sinner, is the ultimate cause of salvation.

    3. Universal Redemption or General Atonement

    Christ's redeeming work made it possible for everyone to be saved but did not actually secure the salvation of anyone. Although Christ died for all men and for every man, only those who believe on Him are saved. His death enabled God to pardon sinners on the condition that they believe, but it did not actually put away anyone's sins. Christ's redemption becomes effective only if man chooses to accept it.

    4. The Holy Spirit Can Be Effectually Resisted

    The Spirit calls inwardly all those who are called outwardly by the gospel invitation; He does all that He can to bring every sinner to salvation. But inasmuch as man is free, he can successfully resist the Spirit's call. The Spirit cannot regenerate the sinner until he believes; faith (which is man's contribution) proceeds and makes possible the new birth. Thus, man's free will limits the Spirit in the application of Christ's saving work. The Holy Spirit can only draw to Christ those who allow Him to have His way with them. Until the sinner responds, the Spirit cannot give life. God's grace, therefore, is not invincible; it can be, and often is, resisted and thwarted by man.

    5. Falling from Grace

    Those who believe and are truly saved can lose their salvation by failing to keep up their faith, etc.

    All Arminians have not been agreed on this point; some have held that believers are eternally secure in Christ - that once a sinner is regenerated, he can never be lost.

    According to Arminianism:

    Salvation is accomplished through the combined efforts of God (who takes the initiative) and man (who must respond) - man's response being the determining factor. God has provided salvation for everyone, but His provision becomes effective only for those who, of their own free will, "choose" to cooperate with Him and accept His offer of grace. At the crucial point, man's will plays a decisive role; thus man, not God, determines who will be recipients of the gift of salvation.
     
    #1 Brother James, Oct 5, 2005
  2. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian New Member

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    Brother James,

    At a quick reading I will say that I agree with this Arminian view. I do, however, believe in the perfect security of the true believer [Hebrews 7:25].

    Do you believe what you have defined in this post, or is this merely a lead into discussion from Calvinists who disagree with this profile you have jotted down?

    I do not believe every person gets to hear the Gospel with the possibility of being saved. Jesus, the Son, will judge them correctly as He will all of us.
     
    #2 Ray Berrian, Oct 5, 2005
  3. El_Guero

    El_Guero New Member

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    Brother James,

    I think that is a good view of how reformed theologians view Arminianism.

    I think the best Arminian view of Arminianism was by Wesley. IMHO and one that I liked. Some Arminians are way out there, just like some Calvinists are way out there.

    web page
     
    #3 El_Guero, Oct 5, 2005
  4. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    First of all I am glad to see a Calvinist actually able to almost state the Arminian position. Almost able to accurately identify what Arminians claim to believe and why he would differ with that belief!

    That is a big first step towards objectivity. BUT as we can see in the list of 5 they are framed as a Calvinist would redefine Arminianism.

    So while all five points are very close to the five points that actually DO comprise the Arminian view - they have Calvinism's opinion of Arminianism "inserted". And that lack of ability to actually identify the other side - is what undermines the ability of Calvinism to offer a good counter argument.

    In the end - the more clearly you again identify the opposing position the better you can address it head on.

    Let us view the injection of Calvinism's complaint and redefinition of Arminianism as it does so in specific cases in the OP...


    The corruption of the Arminian position in that quote above - is almost to the point of "extinction" of all that WAS there to start with in the Arminan view!!

    So lets "unravel the knots" Calvinism ties for the Bible case for free will in the quote above..

    And so ends the "gap analysis" of the FIRST of the five points claimed FOR Arminianism vs Believed BY Arminians.


    A proper "blinders on" defense of Calvinism may be forced to pretend that one
    "does not see the key differences" in those two statements above.

    But the objective reader "will see".

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #4 BobRyan, Oct 7, 2005
  5. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    The Calvinist redefinition of Arminianisms - second point

    The 2nd point - "cleaned up" for what is actually believed.

     
    #5 BobRyan, Oct 7, 2005
  6. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    The contrast between Arminianism and Calvinism boils down to this --

    Arminians accept that Bible truth that in the realm of salvation - God IS impartial (Rom 2:11) and God DOES So Love the WORLD (John 3:16)..

    In the Realm of Calvinism - God is not believed to be impartial nor accepted as one who So Loves the WORLD!

    Arminians never try to "isolate God from His act of Grace" in an effort to make salvation "the act of man" -- the act of the one lost. In every choice of man to accept Christ - Arminiansm sees the RESULT of God's sovereign choice to provide Grace!
     
    #6 BobRyan, Oct 7, 2005
  7. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian New Member

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    Bob Ryan,

    As you have read and may remember or may have forgot Deuteronomy 10:17 also says that the Lord is mighty and terrible, and yet He does not show preferential treatment toward lost souls. In fact our Lord says, 'He does not regard persons.' We are all sinners, we all need salvation and He has provided salvation to all who believe and trust in Him [I Timothy 2:6].

    In both testaments {covenants} the Lord says about Himself that He is impartial. Friar John Calvin never got it straight in his theological mind.

    John Wesley understood it well and rode on horseback everywhere preaching to all lost souls.
     
    #7 Ray Berrian, Oct 8, 2005
  8. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Amen Brother Ray!
     
    #8 BobRyan, Oct 8, 2005
  9. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    The contrast between Arminianism and Calvinism boils down to this --

    Calvinists accept that Bible truth that in the realm of salvation - God IS impartial (Rom 2:11) and God DOES So Love the WORLD (John 3:16)..

    In the Realm of Arminianism - God is not believed to be impartial nor accepted as one who So Loves the WORLD!

    Calvinists never try to "isolate God from His act of Grace" in an effort to make salvation "the act of man" -- the act of the one lost. In every choice of man to accept Christ - Calvinists sees the RESULT of God's sovereign choice to provide Grace!
     
    #9 TCassidy, Oct 8, 2005
  10. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    I guess in an "anything for Calvinism" model you could ingore "all forms of logic" and just repeat the opposing view...

    I had not thought of that antic.

    Thanks for pointing it out.
     
    #10 BobRyan, Oct 8, 2005
  11. whatever

    whatever New Member

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    So you believe that God is partial to those who believe and trust in Him? After all, we all need salvation, as you say, so it seems unfair that He would only provide salvation to some of us.
     
    #11 whatever, Oct 8, 2005
  12. King James Bond

    King James Bond New Member

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    Brother James,

    That is a very good site and I have made it a favorite.

    It is all quite clear to me.

    God bless, KJB
     
    #12 King James Bond, Oct 8, 2005
  13. Bro. James

    Bro. James Well-Known Member
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    What about the souls who die never having heard the gospel? Are they lost, separated from God?

    Some have died never having had a choice in which to exercise their "free will".

    Only God knows them that are His--Jesus died for them and no one can change that.

    Selah,

    Bro. James,
    the less
     
    #13 Bro. James, Oct 8, 2005
  14. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian New Member

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    whatever,

    God provided salvation for all human beings {I John 2:2].

    All who believe are saved [John 3:16].

    Having provided the possibility of salvation for all sinners, it can never be laid at His feet that everyone did not have the possibility to be eternally saved.

    You say, "What about the people in the Muslim world. It is our responsibility to get the truth into their hands [Mark 16:15-16]. As far as I know God has no other plan than for Christians to tell the truth of His death for a person's sins. Angels cannot do this--only the people of God.

    The whole northern tier of Africa is on an average 98% Muslim. We have our work laid out before us.

    There are three women in prison in Java, Indonesia because they taught S.S. lessons to Muslim children. I have been writing to them every two weeks so their captors do not think they are forgotten souls.

    One of the topics on the Baptist Board is the Ten or Twenty Year Plan of the Muslims For America. We better get busy spreading the Gospel. Whenever I leave my house I witness to one or two people.

    We are in a fight for our Christian faith and also for our democracy in the United States.

    Ray
     
    #14 Ray Berrian, Oct 8, 2005
  15. TomMann

    TomMann New Member

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    Acts 13:48 and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
    KJV
     
    #15 TomMann, Oct 8, 2005
  16. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian New Member

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    Tom Mann,

    I guess if the KJV was good enough for the Apostle Paul is should be good for us.

    Go study! Study your verse about '. . . as many as were appointed to eternal life--believed.'

    Check the Greek and a few good commentaries {not Calvinistic mantra}; go do your own homework. :cool:

    Dr. Berrian, Th.D.
     
    #16 Ray Berrian, Oct 8, 2005
  17. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    God 'says' He is impartial to all in Romans 2:11 but is He really telling the truth?? As Bro James points out - the case of those who have no access to the truth of God's Word surely shows that God's word can not be trusted AS IT READS in Romans 2:11....

    Or maybe we should ask that James look at Romans 2:13-16 - 4 verses might be "enlightening" on that subject. Because we all know "God convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment"

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #17 BobRyan, Oct 8, 2005
  18. TomMann

    TomMann New Member

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    Suppose I should learn to read first..... Huh! Why are you assuming that I am unstudied? Because I don't agree with you or because I don't have the Dr. in front or the Th.D. at the end of my name? Normally you don't use that signature line in your posts.... are you trying to intimidate or impress me?

    Okay I'll give ya my credentials. RCPO/RMC That would be Retired Chief Petty Officer/Rural Mail Carrier.

    And I understand that you and I aren't going to see eye to eye on many issues... until that final day.... Then we will both know the truth, huh! (I took great care to delete two sarcastic lines that I really wanted to use.)

    Now I understand the view of many that scripture is difficult to understand and has to be studied in depth. Proper hermeneutics, exegesis are required.

    Or perhaps God made it real simple.. and easy to understand...

    Now as far as the verse I quoted is concerned... You posted a verse... I posted a verse... I didn't post any comment... just a scripture... Why the fuss? Why are you so sensitive about Acts 13:48? Perhaps it doesn't say what you would want it to say... And you said "Go study
    'your' verse". Isn't it in your Bible too?

    Why do you feel the need to discredit me for use of the KJV? I have a bible program that comes up in KJV (out of personal preference) and I cut and paste to make sure it comes out exact... If I had used the NIV it would have said the same thing...... Lets see...

    Acts 13:48
    48 When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed.
    NIV

    I can find commentaries that go both ways on this. Some will agree with you, some will not. Am I to assume that those who do not agree with your view are Calvanist mantra and those that do are inspired?


    Go do your homework?????? What's that all about? Did anyone ever tell you that you might have a problem with a condesencing attitude?

    Tom Mann RCPO/RMC
     
    #18 TomMann, Oct 9, 2005
  19. Me4Him

    Me4Him New Member

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    Satan deceived Adam/Eve into condemning the "whole world".

    The world would have passed into "extinction" without "GOD" reaping so much as "ONE SOUL".

    However the "TOTAL Condemnation" that Satan brought to the world, Jesus removed, and his "REDEMPTION" was as "COMPLETE" as it's "Condemnation".

    The world would have passed into "extinction" without "SATAN" reaping so much as "ONE SOUL".

    God's plan is "PERFECT", but only..IF.. "MAN OBEYS IT".
     
    #19 Me4Him, Oct 9, 2005
  20. Bro. James

    Bro. James Well-Known Member
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    "The possibility of salvation"--an interesting bit of permutation and probability--with eternal consequences. Sure sounds like salvation by works to me.

    How does man make the wise choice? He knows not how in his depraved condition.

    Selah,

    Bro. James
    the less

    P.S. What does RCPO/RMC mean?
     
    #20 Bro. James, Oct 9, 2005
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