Five Points

Discussion in 'Calvinism/Arminianism Debate' started by Van, Oct 25, 2013.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Van

    Van
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    9,516
    Likes Received:
    49
    The Double Election doctrine can be compared with the Arminianism articles of Remonstrance, and with the points of Calvinism (TULIP) using the acronym ELECT.

    The five articles of remonstrance

    1. God has decreed to save through Jesus Christ those of the fallen and sinful race who through the grace of the Holy Spirit believe in him, but leaves in sin the incorrigible and unbelieving. (In other words predestination is said to be conditioned by God's foreknowledge of who would respond to the gospel)
    2. Christ died for all men (not just for the elect), but no one except the believer has remission of sin.
    3. Man can neither of himself nor of his free will do anything truly good until he is born again of God, in Christ, through the Holy Spirit. (Though accused of such, Arminius and his followers were not Pelagians.)
    4. All good deeds or movements in the regenerate must be ascribed to the grace of God but his grace is not irresistible.
    5. Those who are incorporated into Christ by a true faith have power given them through the assisting grace of the Holy Spirit to persevere in the faith. But it is possible for a believer to fall from grace.​
    The five points of Calvinism (TULIP)

    1. That fallen man was totally unable to save himself (Total Depravity)
    2. That God's electing purpose was not conditioned by anything in man (Unconditional Election)
    3. That Christ's atoning death was sufficient to save all men, but efficient only for the elect (Limited Atonement)
    4. That the gift of faith, sovereignly given by God's Holy Spirit, cannot be resisted by the elect (Irresistible Grace)
    5. That those who are regenerated and justified will persevere in the faith (Perseverance of the Saints)​

    The five points of Double Election (ELECT)


    1. Elections - God chose His Redeemer individually (Christ) and all those Christ would redeem corporately before the foundation of the world, the elections before time; and then chooses believers individually during their lifetime based on crediting their wholehearted faith in Christ, the second election.

    2. Love overcomes depravity - Mankind is depraved from conception, separated from God by being in a state of sin with a corrupt flesh and a corrupt human spirit. But God, who understands the heart, accepts the faith, as depraved as it may be, of those who love and trust in His Son.

    3. Effective reconciliation - Christ’s propitiation is sufficient to save all men, but the available reconciliation is only received, when God credits our faith as righteousness and spiritually baptizes us into Christ, making us spiritually alive together with Christ.

    4. Cultivated call - Turning to God and trusting in Christ occur when receptive people hear the gospel and believe. Thus faith in Christ is spread by an external call to those who receive the gospel wholeheartedly.

    5. Trust in Faith - Only by persevering in faith can a believer be sure of salvation, because God protects the faith of His chosen ones. ​
    In summary, Calvinists believe we were saved or condemned from all eternity for all eternity, nothing we do in our lifetime alters what God determined before creation. It is a form of religious fatalism. Arminians believe God foresaw who would choose to trust in Christ and elected them in eternity past. They assert that foreknowledge does not predestine the outcome of our freewill choice to accept the gospel or reject the gospel. Thus the opportunity for salvation is available to anyone who believes and God has not foreordained who can believe, making Limited Atonement false doctrine. The Double Election view generally agrees with the Arminian view, salvation is available to those who hear the gospel and choose to trust in Christ, thus total depravity is a false doctrine, and irresistible grace is a false doctrine. Additionally, God chooses folks that trust in Christ, therefore unconditional election is a false doctrine. On the other hand, the Double Election view accepts that once a person has been chosen and spiritually baptized into Christ and indwelt, sealed with a pledge to an inheritance of eternal life, the person’s faith is protected such that they will always love Jesus more than anything else, resulting in perseverance of those set apart.
     
  2. Benjamin

    Benjamin
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2004
    Messages:
    4,887
    Likes Received:
    112
    I like that. Did you come up that acronym and definitions on your own? "Double Election" is not a term I've heard used before...
     
  3. Van

    Van
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    9,516
    Likes Received:
    49
    Yes. And you are quite right, the Arminians and the Calvinists think we were individually elected before creation (misreading Eph 1:4) and ignore all the verses (i.e. James 2:5 and 2 Thess 2:13) that teach our individual election for salvation occurs during our lives after we have faith and devotion toward Christ.
     
  4. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    14,183
    Likes Received:
    207
    I hate to spoil your party but "double election" and "double predestination" are terms that have been used by others for hundreds of years.
     
  5. Van

    Van
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    9,516
    Likes Received:
    49
    Yes it seems sometimes double predestination has been called double election.

    So when you look at it, it is a single election before time of individuals, with two effects, salvation for some, damnation for others.
    Not the concept of two separate elections, corporate before time, and individual during our lifetime.
     
  6. saturneptune

    saturneptune
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2006
    Messages:
    13,977
    Likes Received:
    0
    So Van baby, here is your third point in remonstrance.

    3. Man can neither of himself nor of his free will do anything truly good until he is born again of God, in Christ, through the Holy Spirit. (Though accused of such, Arminius and his followers were not Pelagians.)

    So, if man cannot do anything truly good until he is born again, how does man choose to be born again?
     
  7. Van

    Van
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    9,516
    Likes Received:
    49
    Silly Questions flow from Calvinists

    This question has been asked and answered literally hundreds of times. They just repeat the question and ignore the answer.

    ANSWER for the umpteenth time

    Before we are born anew, all our works of righteousness are as filthy rags. Before God they have no merit and earn no rewards. This is Christianity 101 and all Calvinists and Arminians agree with it. Thus when we "receive" the gospel, and put our wholehearted (or half-hearted) faith in Christ, our action has no merit, our wretched faith has no merit, for all our works of righteousness are as filthy rags. This is pretty simple.

    Next, let us examine the Calvinist claim we choose to be born anew. Did we? Or did we choose to trust in Christ? We chose to trust in Christ. Calvinists seem unable to get anything right.

    God chooses us and puts us in Christ spiritually, and causes us to be born anew, spiritually alive together with Christ. Thus it is God alone who credits our faith, wretched and flawed as it may be, as righteousness or not. He turns our filthy rag sow's ear faith into a silk purse.
     
    #7 Van, Oct 27, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 27, 2013
  8. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    14,183
    Likes Received:
    207
    You are confusing faith with its object. Faith does not justify anyone but it is the PROPER object of faith that justifies or credits us with righteousness.

    I think your problem is that you are taking Romans 4:3-5 and interpreting it apart from Romans 3:24-26 and Romans 3:23-25. Remember, Paul is simply giving Abraham as an illustration or example of Romans 3:24-26 and the application of Romans 4:22-25.

    Faith is empty, void and worthless in and by itself. Righteousness is not found in faith but in the Person and provision of Christ. Faith simply lays hold of that righteousness. That righteousness is IMPUTED to the UNGODLY through faith. Faith is merely the channel through which the righteousness of Christ is LEGALLY applied to the "UNGODLY" - Rom. 4:5. It (the righteousness of Christ) is LEGALLY IMPUTED or APPLIED to the "UNGODLY" - hence the crediting does not change the person but only his legal position before God. Regeneration is what changes the Person not justification. The former changes his Person while the latter changes his legal position.
     
    #8 The Biblicist, Oct 27, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 27, 2013
  9. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    14,183
    Likes Received:
    207
    That is why JUSTIFYING faith is the work of God (Heb. 12;2; Eph. 2:10; Jn. 6:29; 44-45; 64-54). The natural man is not morally disposed to justifyingly believe in Christ (Rom. 8:7).



    Our faith justifies and saves no one! It is the object of faith that saves and justifies. The inclination to receive Christ does not arise from the unregenerate nature but from the new regenerate heart and it is simeltaneous in regard to chronological order but the logical fruit of regeneration.

    So it is not regeneration first then faith or faith first then regeneration but BOTH simelaneously in regard to time but regeneration first then faith logically.
     
  10. Van

    Van
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    9,516
    Likes Received:
    49
    Calvinists simply post personal attacks (Van is confused) or offer up strawman - Claiming that our faith justifies us, thus it is God given, rather than addressing that if God credits our faith as righteousness, it is God that puts us in Christ and justifies us through the washing of regeneration in Christ Jesus.
     
  11. Van

    Van
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    9,516
    Likes Received:
    49
    Hebrews 12:2 teaches God is the author and perfecter of faith. What do we put our faith in? Christ, as we understand the gospel of Christ. Thus everyone agrees God is the author of faith. But, being fallen, all our works of righteousness, even faith in Christ, as as filthy rags. So God, when He credits our faith as righteousness, turning a sow's ear into a silk purse, is the perfecter of faith. "Justifying faith" is not mentioned in the verse. If "justifying faith" was instilled via Irresistible Grace, then God would not need to credit it as righteousness, it would already be righteous.

    Ephesians 2:10 addresses our regeneration as a new creation, created for good works after God puts us in Christ. It does not address "justifying faith." Again, we are put in Christ after we believe, not before, Ephesians 1:13, which says we are sealed in Christ after having believed.

    John 6:29 says the work God requires of us is to believe. Thus teaching the opposite of Calvinism. They take ambiguous verses, i.e. work of God, and claim it means work God does rather than work God requires, ignoring the context of Jesus telling men what they must do.

    John 6:44-45 says we must be drawn to Christ (through the lovingkindness presented in the gospel of Christ who died for us) and then says everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Christ. Instilled justifying faith is nowhere to be found. Calvinists simply list a bunch of verses, hoping folks will accept the list as proving the assertion, rather than studying each verse in context.

    Finally John 6:59-65 says no one can come to Jesus unless it has been granted by the Father. So no one can believe in Jesus unless drawn and have learned, and then if God credits their faith as righteousness, He puts them in Christ, and Christ will not cast them out. Really simple and instilled justifying faith is nowhere to be found yet again.
     
  12. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    14,183
    Likes Received:
    207
    Hebrews 12:2 has NOTHING to say about who we put our faith in! It defines who is the AUTHOR of faith and it is not man. The idea of "author" refers to its origin, source not its object. Hebrews 11 has just preceded this and the definition of Hebrews 11:1 has already been laid to define the nature of this faith and this is the kind of faith one must have in order to please God (Heb. 11:6) in approaching God and the natural man cannot please God (Rom. 8:8). Justifying faith has its origin and source with God not man.





    The perfect peraphrastic "are ye saved" in verse 8 declares that regeneration (and he is referring to regeneration by the word "saved" as verse 6 shows) was a completed action at a particular point in the past that continues to stand completed and this completed action was inseparably performed "through faith." It is this whole phrase "by grace are ye saved thorugh faith" that is the antecedent of "that" and is further the antecedent of "His workmanship" and is further described as a work of creation "created in Christ Jesus" as no UNBELIEVER can be "in Christ Jesus " any more than any UNREGENERATE can be "in Christ Jesus" as both are concurrent with each other and inseparable from one another and the perfect tense completed action periphrastic proves that.



    The Greek text has no "after that" in Ephesians 1:13.

    No that is not what it says or means and the following context proves it over and over and over again. They asked what work could they do and Christ responded that faith is not their work but "this is the work of God" and goes on to prove it is God's work and not their work as they saw Him and did not believe (Jn. 6:36) BECAUSE they were not GIVEN by God to come to Christ (Jn. 6:37-39) BECAUSE they were not drawn by the Father (Jn. 6:44-45) even some among His own disciples who professed him with their mouth REMAINED IN UNBELIEF (Jn. 6:64) BECAUSE the Father had never given faith to them (Jn. 6:65).

    It says no such thing! It says NO MAN CAN COME (universal inability) and it says that ALL whom God teaches do come to Christ.

    Remember, the first part of verse 45 is merely the scripture quotation while the latter part is the INTERPRETATION of Christ! You must confuse this fact in order to justify your nonsense! The same Greek word translated "all" in the quotation of Isaiah in verse 45a is the same Greek word translated "every man" in the INTERPRETATION of that scripture in verse 45b. The "all" that is taught by God is the "every man" that has heard and has been learned (PAST TENSE VERBS). No man can be taught by anyone unless they both first hear what the teacher is teaching and learned from Him. Hence "heard" and "learned" define what the Isaiah text means by "taught." ALL who have been taught by God come to Christ in faith. NONE come to Christ who have not been taught by God. This INWARD TEACHING by God is the same thing as having the truth of the gospel REVEALED to them by the Father instead of by men (Mt. 16:17; Gal. 1:15-16; 2 Cor. 4:6). This inward teaching by the Father is the work of the Holy Spirit providing that INWARD LIGHT OF KNOWLEDGE that produces faith in Christ that reverses all the INWARD characteristics of the unregenerate state described in Ephesians 4:18! Ephesians 4:18 is reversed by 2 Cor. 4:6.


    You have no clue what it says! John 6:64 sets forth the immediate issue of UNBELEIF among his own PROFESSED disciples but Christ knew FROM THE BEGINNING of their profession they had a false profession of faith including Judas who was a devil from the beginning. John 6:65 is the direct response to those FALSE PROFESSORS in verse 64. Here Christ intentionally substitutes the word "given to him" (v. 65) in the place of "draw" (v. 44) referring to justifying faith that was LACKING in them in verse 64 and clearly stated to be lacking IN THEM. This is so clear and so plain that one must have a seared conscience and blind eyes not to see what is being said.
     
  13. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    14,183
    Likes Received:
    207
    Again, it is not GENERIC "faith" that is credited to us for righteousness as the context clearly defines this kind of faith as that kind which has the PROPER OBJECT embraced (Rom. 3:24-26; 4:23-25) as Jesus said (Jn. 8:56-58) that Abraham saw Christ by faith and believed in the gospel (Gal. 3:8). This faith is credited to us for righteousness because it embraces the righteousness of Christ as its only hope and yet this is embraced by a person still considered to be "UNGODLY" in regard to his own person (Rom. 4:5).
     
  14. Van

    Van
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    9,516
    Likes Received:
    49
    Folks, all we get is strawmen from Calvinists. To be the author of faith means to be the author of the object and content of that faith. If we believe in Him who justifies the ungodly, our faith in Christ is credited as righteousness.

    Next we get twaddle, claiming something hidden in the Greek grammar indicates regeneration occurs before we believe. But verse 8 says were were saved (including regeneration) through faith. That means faith provided the access to the grace in which we stand. If you enter a room full of grace through a door, you have the open door of faith before you enter the room.

    Anyone who denies Ephesians 1:13 says we were sealed in Christ after having believed is simply stonewalling.

    Next Calvinism hides in the ambiguity of work of God, but Dr. Wallace (a Calvinist) has revealed that the idea is work God requires. See NET footnotes for John 6:29. The an appeal to the whole mistaken view of John 6 is made yet again, regurgitating one mistaken view after another.

    Then we dive into absurdity with "no man can come" said to mean universal inability, but the idea is no man can come unless the Father draws Him meaning men may or may not come to Him after being drawn. So we cannot come to Him unless we have heard and been drawn by Christ's lovingkindness demonstrated in the gospel, and all who have heard and learned (putting their faith wholeheartedly in Christ as determined by God) come to Him.

    And finally Calvinism is clueless as to John 6:59-65, repeating over and over the same mistaken view.

    How did Abraham "see My day" (John 8:56)?It is certainly not spelled out in scripture, so the Calvinist again pours his invention into the text. Some scholars speculate when Abraham found the ram to replace his son Issac, that foreshadowed finding Christ to be our sacrifice. One thing is sure, Calvinism is without a clue.
     
  15. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    14,183
    Likes Received:
    207
    What an utterly absurd and rediculous response! Christ is not the author of the object and context as he IS the object and content. The text says he is the author of faith and that faith has been previously defined (Heb. 11;1) and described as essental to please God (Heb. 11:6) and no man "in the flesh" can please God (Rom. 8:8).
     
  16. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    14,183
    Likes Received:
    207
    I said no such thing! Indeed, I denied such a thing. Learn to read or at least to understand what you read. I used the word "simeltaneously"! Do you know the meaning of the word??? Regeneration and faith occur simeltaneously as one cannot occur without the other and that is the meaning of "THROUGH" faith in connection with perfect tense completed action - it all occured as one completed action.

    If you cannot understand that then look at Ephesians 4:18 and the descriptions of the unregenerate state and you will see gospel revelation inherently reverses those descriptions (2 Cor. 4:6) proving they are inseparably united as one action even though there is a LOGICAL distinction.


    More pure ignorance! I never said any such thing! I said that the words "after that" cannot be found in the Greek text and regeneration and conversion are as inseparable as repentance is to faith.

    Dr. Wallace is wrong and Dr. Jesus proves he is wrong by the context and the proof is in the context as provided.

    Jesus makes a universal statement of universal inability. If there was no universal inability there would be no need for any exception to overcome it. The exception declares it is the case of all men prior to that exception.


    What crass ignorance! If this is the extent you must stretch, pervert, malign scripture to defend your doctrine, try another business.
     
  17. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    17,080
    Likes Received:
    49
    Though the points between Arminianism and Calvinism seem to be similiar at first glance, there are some wife differences, as Calvinism tries to keep it God centered for salvation, while Arminianism despite its best efforts, preserves a more man centered view!
     
  18. Van

    Van
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    9,516
    Likes Received:
    49
    Calvinism never actually addresses alternate views, it just posts strawman arguments, one after the other.

    1) Is the basis of salvation in the actions of the man that wills to be saved? Of course not, it does not depend on the man that wills but on God. So a misdirection, a strawman, an obfuscation. That is all they have.

    2) Christ provided the propitiation for the whole world, all mankind, but only those who receive the reconciliation are saved. We receive the reconciliation, the washing of regeneration, when God, based on His sovereign judgment, puts us in Christ.

    3) More assertions of irresistible grace instilling faith. Total nonsense as demonstrated by Matthew 23:13.

    4) The double election doctrine (ELECT) is god-centered, based on scripture rather than the invention primarily of men known as Calvinism.
     
  19. Van

    Van
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    9,516
    Likes Received:
    49
    Christ is the object of our faith.

    Since scripture clearly teaches we are sealed in Christ after we believe, Ephesians 1:13, Calvinism evades the error of claiming regeneration before faith by saying they occur simultaneously. They still have no answer for the obvious, we are saved by grace through faith. Thus we have faith before we enter grace. Calvinism rewrites it to read we are saved by faith through irresistible grace. Nonsense over and over.

    Next we get a denial of Dr. Wallace's view of John 6:29. Fine, most folks will stick with the author of Greek Grammar - Beyond the Basics.

    Again the mistaken doctrine of Total Spiritual Inability is asserted, but no answer is provided for Matthew 23:13 which as unregenerate men seeking God such that they are entering heaven. Thus they had the ability but were blocked in this case by false teachers.

    Calvinism rests of claiming ambiguous verses mean something out of context, and to hide this obvious problem, non-Cal's are said to exhibit "crass ignorance," and then are charged with all the actions of Calvinists.
     
  20. Van

    Van
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    9,516
    Likes Received:
    49
    Elections - God chose His Redeemer individually (Christ) and all those Christ would redeem corporately before the foundation of the world, the elections before time; and then chooses believers individually during their lifetime based on crediting their wholehearted faith in Christ, the second election.

    As Dr. Wallace taught, corporate election can result from individual election. In the case of Ephesians 1:4, those to be redeemed were chosen corporately as the target group of God's redemption plan. Christ was chosen and foreknown before the foundation of the world, and therefore He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world.

    Our individual election for salvation occurs during our lifetime, after we have lived without mercy (1 Peter 2:9-10). We are chosen by being set apart in Christ, the sanctification by the Spirit and through or on the basis of faith in the truth (2 Thessalonians 2:13).
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page

Loading...