For all dispensational brethren to consider

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Iconoclast, Sep 28, 2011.

  1. Iconoclast

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  2. Ruiz

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  3. Iconoclast

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  4. stilllearning

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    What an interesting website.
    “Against Dispensationalism”

    I bet if you looked long enough, you could find a website against anything.
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    I was quickly skimming and stopped at #5..........
    I am a “dispensationalist”, and I have never believed this.
    But this is a good place to start.
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    If it was not for Romans 11:, I might not even be a dispensationalist at all.
    But we can’t remove Romans 11: can we.

    This chapter is all about how the Jews are(and always will be), God’s people.
    And how God has made a promise to them that He will not go back on.

    Therefore God explains, that even though they are in disobedience He has arranged a way for them to be kept safe from His Judgement........
    Romans 11:7
    “What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded”


    Now the elect Jews are those Jews who accepted(and will accept), Jesus as the Messiah.

    But notice what this verse goes on to say........
    “.......and the rest were blinded”.
    The rest of who? The rest of the Jews.
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    As you continue to study every word of Romans 11:, you will find out that God has blinded the Jews that reject Jesus, so that they will not have to be judged!

    Now this just doesn’t seem fair to me, but He is God and He can never lie and He has promised His people the Jews “eternal security”.

    Now I don’t pretend to understand this, but God did not expect me to.
    Because in this same chapter the God says.......
    Romans 11:33
    “O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable [are] his judgments, and his ways past finding out!”

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    As a dispensationalist I have admitted that even though I don’t understand everything that God is doing, if I take an honest look at the Bible, I can clearly see the 7 dispensations.

    In fact, as a young Christian while studying the Bible, I saw them long before I had even heard of dispensationalism.
     
  5. thomas15

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    One would think that after 400+ years of Bible study, (reformed) covenant theologians would have by now found the covenants of works, redemption and grace in the approx 1000 pages of the Bible.
     
  6. 12strings

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    There are 7 dispensations???
     
  7. Ruiz

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    While the covenants have had names assigned to them that have been and continue to be debatable, the fact of covenants are not debatable. I disagree with the wording of the covenants, but I do not question that there exists covenants.
     
  8. stilllearning

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    Yes there is.
    All being established, by events recorded in Scripture:
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    (1) Dispensation Innocency:(In the garden)
    Genesis 2:15
    “And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.”
    Genesis 3:23
    “Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.”

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    (2) Dispensation of Conscience: (From the fall the flood)
    Genesis 4:1
    “And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD.”
    Genesis 8:18
    “And Noah went forth, and his sons, and his wife, and his sons’ wives with him:”

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    (3) Dispensation of Human Government: (From the flood to Abraham)
    Genesis 8:20
    “And Noah builded an altar unto the LORD; and took of every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt offerings on the altar.”
    Genesis 12:1
    “Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father’s house, unto a land that I will shew thee:”

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    (4) Dispensation of Promise: (From Abraham to Moses)
    Genesis 12:4
    “So Abram departed, as the LORD had spoken unto him; and Lot went with him: and Abram [was] seventy and five years old when he departed out of Haran.”
    Exodus 2:1-3
    V.1 ¶ And there went a man of the house of Levi, and took [to wife] a daughter of Levi.
    V.2 And the woman conceived, and bare a son: and when she saw him that he [was a] goodly [child], she hid him three months.
    V.3 And when she could not longer hide him, she took for him an ark of bulrushes, and daubed it with slime and with pitch, and put the child therein; and she laid [it] in the flags by the river’s brink.”

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    (5) Dispensation of Law: (Moses To Christ)
    Exodus 2:10
    “And the child grew, and she brought him unto Pharaoh’s daughter, and he became her son. And she called his name Moses: and she said, Because I drew him out of the water.”
    Luke 2:7
    “And she brought forth her firstborn son, and wrapped him in swaddling clothes, and laid him in a manger; because there was no room for them in the inn.”

    --------------------------------------------------
    (6) Dispensation of Grace: (Pentecost to the Rapture)
    Acts 2:14
    “But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all [ye] that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:”
    1 Thessalonians 4:16
    “For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:”

    --------------------------------------------------
    (7) Dispensation of The millennium
    Revelation 20:4
    “And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.”

    --------------------------------------------------
     
  9. preachinjesus

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    I've read these before and still find it an incredible waste of time and money to make a website about them.

    My only point of comment is that they are all written against classical dispensationalism ala Ryrie, Walvoord, Scofield, etc. They don't effectively (or at all) engage in discussion with/against progressive dispensationalism with the better, more dominant (academically) category of belief.

    The classic dispensational matrix was broken when it was proposed and had a lot of problems reconciling parts of Scriptures between OT and NT. I'd certainly suggest that Blaising and Bock have made tremendous strides in reconciling these conflicts in their proposal of prgoressive dispensationalism. It is worth a read if you've never gone through it.
     
  10. Ruiz

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    To semi quote Ryrie, Progressive Dispensationalism is neither progressive nor dispensational.

    However, some of the points do deal with progressive dispensationalism. The major issue of the church and Israel deal with both.
     
  11. Ruiz

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  12. stilllearning

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    Thanks for the link:

    But although I would be considered somewhere between a Dispensationalist and a Progressive Dispensationalist, I agree with my understanding of the Analogy of Faith.
    And I believe that anyone that was ever saved, was saved by Grace.
    I also believe in the 3 purposes of the Law.
     
  13. kyredneck

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  14. Ruiz

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    The three purposes of the law makes no difference if you are a dispensationalist. Rather, it is a moot point under that set-up. If you hold to an analogy of faith, then to be consistent you either cannot remain a dispensationalist or you will compromise this doctrine. Dispensationalists have been honest that they do not hold to the traditional analogy of faith but have setup a different system that resembles it, but giving them freedom to compromise on certain aspects of the analogy of faith.
     
  15. thomas15

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    You are correct, there are covenants in the Bible and I don't know of any dispensationalist who would disagree. However, no where does the Bible teach the existence of the covenants or works, redemption and or grace. Those non-existant covenants are the basis of reformed covenant theology.
     
  16. Ruiz

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    Again, there are debates on the titles, but there are not debates that there are covenants. Covenants is God's chosen agreement in which there are interactions with God and Man. From before the fall, there was a covenant with Adam and Eve, that if they obeyed they would be happy and holy, but if they didn't obey there would be consequences. At the fall, there was another covenant established because of the failure of Adam and Eve from the first Covenant, and that covenant included God's work to redeem the old Covenant. The New Testament has the same, there are requirements to be within covenant of God.

    I am not certain what specific problems you have with covenants, but as long as man exist there have been covenants with man by God and will continue to be covenants with man by God.
     
  17. thomas15

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    From the Bible, what agreement do you speak of?
     
  18. Ruiz

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    Well, when God created Adam, he was told he had authority over all things but he should not eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. That is an agreement (the covenants were not always ratified by the other side as noted in the Abrahamic Covenant in Genesis 17, where God alone passed between the animal sacrifices).

    In the latter part of Genesis 3, we learn a new relationship existed, a banishment by Adam and Eve which resulted in a fallen Universe. Satan was going to be crushed by Jesus and a redeemer was promised. Again, this is a covenant by God with man.

    These are clearly language of covenant, God established criteria by which he will interact with the others and God guaranteed by His Word.

    The language of Covenant as theologically defined, is that God must "voluntarily condescend." In each of these cases, we see God doing such in unique ways. Before the fall, based on his people being Holy. After the fall, based on God's grace and the promised redeemer.

    Thus, that is covenant theology, the ways in which God voluntarily condescends to interact with us.
     
  19. preachinjesus

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    This struck me as funny. Significant theologians have spent decades discussing the two positions and yet some people still feel that they can create their own "middle ground" and defy the categories that have been well laid out.

    I guess we really do live in times where "Everyone did what was right in their own eyes"
     
  20. JesusFan

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    quote] The God of isreal/Jewish people is indeed yahweh, God and father of the Lord jesus, its just that unless they received Yeshua as their Messiah, no longer in a personal Covenant relationship with their true God![/quote]
     

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