For all dispensational brethren to consider

There are a couple of notations that some have made that I think are significant.

1. One person noted that Progressive Dispensationalism has undergone a scholarly critique while Dispensationalism failed under that criticism. Interesting!

2. Another person noted that some try to develop another method and abandon what serious scholars have debated, thinking they are wiser than what has already been critiqued. Interesting!

My point of view!

Dispensationalism, while wrong, has undergone over 150 years of scholarly criticism. To critique Progressive Dispensationalism (PD), which has really only been advanced in the last 20 years, against Dispensationalism's scrutiny is a laugh. The same could be said for New Covenant Theology (NCT). Traditional Dispensationalism is wrong, granted, but to say Progressive has withstood all these scholarly critiques and is more sustainable, when it is only 20 years old, just does not pass the straight face test.

Secondly, if you do not hold to any of the theologies advanced, I think you have a heavy road to advance your own theory because there is so much you will have to answer for to even be a viable theory. When you start adding your own portions to these theories, there is too much to consider and you create more problems than you solve.

For me, I hold to Covenant Theology. I am not smart enough to modify it to fit my whims, but I do believe this is what the Bible teaches.

 

Just curious here...
What bible verses would you use to support the 3 Covenants said to be in the Bible by Covenant theologians ....

 

Well, I am not sure what you are talking about with three covenants. We see more covenants to include the Covenant with Adam before the fall, the covenant after the fall. Noahic Covenant, Abrahamic Covenant, Sinaitic Covenant, Davidic Covenant, and the New Covenant. I think we have several instances where these covenants are evident. I could list them if you like.

I would recommend you read Michael Horton's book on Covenant Theology.

Yet, if you are asking me why I disagree with dispensationalism, I believe the church is the true Israel as noted in Jeremiah 31 and Hebrews 8.

 

I've never met a Christian that isn't a dispensationalist, regardless of their particular bent of their belief. The website is of a dispensational gospel, yet rejects any that do not accept their dispensational view.

 

I was asking on the Covenants of redemption/works/ and grace , as per Covenant theology!

 

Covenant of Redemption: Ephesians 1:3-10; John 17, there was before the foundation of the world an agreement to save sinners.

Covenant of Works (I don't like the name but understand what you mean). I have already outlined that in previous posts to you. Essentially, it is the Adamic Covenant before the fall, that they would not eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Wayne Grudem explains it here.

Covenant of Grace. There are so many avenues to address this. However, merely saying there was one plan of salvation for all time for all people seems like a good definition or this definition which is historicallly agreed upon and written by Francis Turretine:

"the covenant of grace as ‘a gratuitous pact between God offended and man the offender, entered into in Christ, in which God promises to man freely on account of Christ remission of sins and salvation, and man relying on the same grace promises faith and obedience. Or it is a gratuitous agreement between God the offended one and man the offender concerning grace and glory in Christ to be conferred upon man the sinner on the condition of faith’. Consequently the elements in the covenant consist in (1) the Author, (2) the Parties contracting, (3) the Mediator, and (4) the Clauses a parte Dei and a parte hominis"

Ideas where this covenant is manifested is the following: Genesis 3:15 Jeremiah 31, Hebrews 8, Ephesians 1:3-10, John 17, Romans 5, Luke 22:20, Genesis 15 and 17... etc. For an explanation of this covenant, John Murray explains it here.

Thus, those are supports. I will say that limiting these to just three covenants is rare. Most people I know would not limit to three and would not avoid the Abrahamic Covenant as this is key to an understanding of Covenant Theology.

 

weren't Adam/Eve though still under salvation by grace?
Their faith was shown by their obedience to heeding the commands/voice of God, and their act of sin was from "lack of faith" in what God said?

 

Their act was not merely lack of faith (which is not found in Scripture) but disobedience (which is found in Scripture) by eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Granted, all sin is ultimately lack of faith in God, but the sin is the sin... and it is what all of Scripture says is sin.

I am not sure what point you are trying to make that relates to this discussion, but the Bible shows clearly what their sin was.

 

Just as calvinism is a moving target with debatable differences (sometimes heated) so also dispensationalism.

Just as the propounders of calvinism claim that the elements of calvinism pre-existed calvin so also did elements of dispensationism pre-exist Darby, Scofield... etc

As a matter of fact the first clash in the 95 thesis has this statement that dspensationalsm "was wholly unknown to Christian scholars for the first eighteen hundred years of the Christian era" then goes on in theses 2 to admit that Justin Martyr (AD103-165) at least knewof the millennium.

Therefore it was NOTwholly unknown to the early church.

As a matter of fact scan the BB database and you will find several quotations I had made from early church fathers concerning a literal 1000 year reign of Christ upon the earth at His return. It was a weary bit of research and apparently fell upon deaf ears (not that I am without the same affliction). It was in relaonship to preterism.

I don't want to scan through my 20,000 pages of church fathers or the BB again because no one will be convinced.

Ecclesiastes 12:12 And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh.​

BTW, if you can eat a ham sandwich without a twing of conscience you are a either a dispensationalist of sorts or disobedient to God.

Deuteronomy 14:8 And the swine, because it divideth the hoof, yet cheweth not the cud, it is unclean unto you: ye shall not eat of their flesh, nor touch their dead carcase.​

HankD​

 

Hank,

I not only disagree, I disagree and can cite sources of those who disagree with you from an historic theology perspective. There is no doubt that pre-millennialism existed prior to Dispensationalism, but that is not the issue nor the focus. While there were many who held to a pre-millennial, their view was radically different that dispensational pre-millenial views.

Rather, some held what is traditionally a post-tribulation view, where they viewed the church going through the tribulation period. Some tried to place this in a number of years and others did not. Before Darby's group, premillennialism was basically covenental premil. Here is a quote:

"Historic premillennialism as thus far presented (throughout history) was challenged by a new premillennial viewpoint in the nineteenth century, resulting in a division among premillenialists. John Newlson Darby and the Plymouth Brethren were originators of dispensational premillennialism. A key distinguishing element in this was its insistence that the church has not replaced Israel as the people of God; rather, the two are distinct groups, each with its own history, destiny, and hope. Another essential belief was that the church would be caught up with Christ--an event called the rapture of teh church-- and removed to heaven immediately before the period of seven years of the great tribulation." (Allison, Gregg R. "Historical Theology: An Introduction to Christian Doctrine. p. 694. Emphasis mine).

In other words, when you cite the early fathers in their view to prove that dispensational premillenialism is older than Darby's group, you are arguing apples and oranges. Rather, there is a tremendous distinction between the early church fathers' views of the church and the nature of the end times than what occurred in the 1800's. Having read the early church fathers on the subject, I can attest that they view us as Israel and thus a more Covenant view of the end times, not a dispensational view.

You would not accept me when I held to a historic pre-mil belief because other parts of my theology were radically different. Thus, you should not claim our early church fathers for the same reason.

 

Hello Iconoclast

You said.......

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Romans 11:7-12
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V.7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
Note: The rest of this passage is about these “blinded” Jews.
Also the rest of the Bible makes it clear that the Jewish nation is made up of God’s people.

The only reason anybody says that the Jews of today are no longer God’s people are because of their sin and their rejection of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Therefore, the verse just before this passage, says.....
Romans 11:6
“And if by grace, then [is it] no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if [it be] of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.”

Here, the Lord is “subtly” trying to teach us, that “being God’s people”, can have nothing to do with obedience or good works: (Everybody has always been saved by grace!)
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V.8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.

Because of God’s unique relationship with the Jew, He is obligated to keep them from going to hell.(Just like with any born again Christian today.)
Therefore the way God chose to do this, was to blind them to the truth.

This is just like the reason why babies will never go to hell:
Because they are too young to understand the Gospel... et.al.
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V.9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
V.10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.

Here is an Old Testament prophecy(Psalms 69:22), that foretells God’s blinding of the Jewish nation!
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V.11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but [rather] through their fall salvation [is come] unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

Here is another example of God’s protection of them.
“Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid:”

Instead God uses their fall, to open up a door for the Gentiles to be saved.
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V.12 Now if the fall of them [be] the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

Here is where the details of Scripture pay off big-time, in bringing us to an understanding of the truth.
“how much more their fulness”
There is going to be time, when the nation of Israel(the Jews), are going to accept the Lord Jesus Christ as the Messiah; And it will be a glorious event.

It just so happens that I taught on this point last Wednesday night......
http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=74231
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God has made a promise to the Jewish people, through David........
Psalms 89:3
“I have made a covenant with my chosen, I have sworn unto David my servant,”
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Here is the end of this passage........
Psalms 89:28-37
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V.28 My mercy will I keep for him for evermore, and my covenant shall stand fast with him.

The Lord’s mercy will always be working, for the Jewish people.
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V.29 His seed also will I make [to endure] for ever, and his throne as the days of heaven.

The Jews will always be Gods people.
Note: The last part of this verse.......
“.......and his throne as the days of heaven.”
This is a clue that points us toward all the other Scriptures that teach that our Lord Jesus Christ, will be sitting on the throne of David in Jerusalem, when He comes back to rule the world for 1000 years.
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V.30 If his children forsake my law, and walk not in my judgments;
V.31 If they break my statutes, and keep not my commandments;

They did this over and over again: And they were chastened for it, just like any Christian will be, for doing the same thing.
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V.32 Then will I visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes.

Because we are God’s people, he will chasten us.
(This is why I believe that Ananias & Sapphira were saved.)
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V.33 Nevertheless my lovingkindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail.

Here we are getting close, to the reason why God will never let the Jews go to hell:
Because it involves “His faithfulness”!
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V.34 My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips.
V.35 Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David.

God has made some promises to Israel that He will never go back on.
He is not a man, that He should lie.
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V.36 His seed shall endure for ever, and his throne as the sun before me.
V.37 It shall be established for ever as the moon, and [as] a faithful witness in heaven. Selah.

“Selah”. We aught to stop and think about this for a while.
The Jews are God’s people and therefore they have eternal security just like we do.

But right now, they are in rebellion and sin; But God has blinded them, for a reason!
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This is three pages, to answer just the first part of your post.
The next installment will be coming soon.

 

An excellent find Iconoclast...thanks for posting. They had me in the introduction.

 

Dear brother Ruiz,

As I said, I grew weary of the debate then, I have already grown weary with this one but I did want to mention that there is no one "classical" view of dispensationalism. There are far more varying views than Darby, Scofield, Pentecost, etc...

I do accept you as my brother in Christ regardless of your views of eschatolgy. As others have said, this is not a hill to die on.

I understand about Margaret Mcdonald, Darby and the Plymouth Brethren.
But it is my belief (and I can't prove it conclusively) that their organizing (Darby and Margaret McDonald) of the tenets of what is now called "dispensationalism" (Particularly the doctrine of a secret "rapture") was Jesuit in origin.

From my own research I had found that it is possible that their systematized theology of dispensationalism might have been sourced from Roman Catholic jesuitry.

Try this name - Manual De Lacunza. Also Francisco Ribera.

Here is an interesting website:

http://www.aloha.net/~mikesch/antichrist.htm

Happy hunting...

HankD

 

So true. They, and all we in the same camp believe so very fully in the Heavenly Gospel that came from our Risen Lord Jesus Christ. He tells there is one that He did reveal such a dispensational gospel to.

We can find what we are looking for. These people originated nothing, but both came away with a theology, which theology does not agree with others of different theological thought.

You see codification in Darby, and not a faith. Darby had a predecessor who was a Roman, but of Jewish origin.

 

Hello Iconoclast

You are right; We had better nail this down first before going on.
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You asked..........
“Are you trying to say...that you believe all jewish people throughout time have to be saved????”

Yes and no!
That is like asking someone.....
“Are you trying to say...that you believe every Christian throughout time has been saved????”

Yes, “all” Jewish people just like “all” Christians are saved;
But just as everyone who calls themselves a Christian isn’t necessarily a Christian;
So also everyone who calls themselves a Jew isn’t necessarily a Jew.

But yes, the Jews are still God’s people.
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You also asked...........

No.....God says it!

In the Bible, there are thousands of passages, that tell us this; and in my last post on this thread, there are a dozen or so places, where God says that the Jews are His people and will always be.
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But the bigger problem you have to deal with is......
First: (Why do you think they aren’t saved?)
Second: (Why do you doubt God’s Word, that says they are?)

 

Good evening Iconoclast

The first Scripture you sited as to why you think the Jews are unsaved was........
Romans 9:8
“That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these [are] not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.”

But lets put that in context...........
Romans 9:6-9
V.6 ¶ Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they [are] not all Israel, which are of Israel:
V.7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, [are they] all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
V.8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these [are] not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
V.9 For this [is] the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son.

So you can see, this is talking about people who are not descended from Isaac.

But boy, look at the first 5 verses...........
Romans 9:1-5
V.1 ¶ I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
V.2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
V.3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
V.4 Who are Israelites; to whom [pertaineth] the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service [of God], and the promises;
V.5 Whose [are] the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ [came], who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

Like I said, there are thousands of passages that tells us that the Jews will always be God’s people.
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Next you quoted........
Matthew 21:42-45
V.42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord’s doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
V.43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
V.44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
V.45 And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.

And said.......

This passage does not say that.
For sure, the kingdom of God(the Church), was taken from them, and as a result of God’s chastening hand upon them, are grinding them into power.
But they are still saved!

Maybe you misunderstand me, when I say that they are saved(God’s people).
This does not mean that they are Christians(part of the body of Christ), it just means that they are saved!

We Christians, aren’t the only people that are going to heaven.
There will be several groups of people in heaven(Old Testament saints), (those saved during the tribulation), (babies) etc.
But none of these will be “the bride of Christ”!

When the Jews rejected Jesus, they forfeited their place in the Church, by rejecting the Kingdom of God.
But they are still God’s people!
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Next you quoted..........
Psalms 78:21-22
V.21 Therefore the LORD heard [this], and was wroth: so a fire was kindled against Jacob, and anger also came up against Israel;
V.22 Because they believed not in God, and trusted not in his salvation:

Which just goes to show, with clever editing, we can make the Bible say anything we want it to say.

Just to realize where we are at here, look at the first 8 verses of this chapter....
Psalms 78:1-8
V.1 ¶ Maschil of Asaph. Give ear, O my people, [to] my law: incline your ears to the words of my mouth.
V.2 I will open my mouth in a parable: I will utter dark sayings of old:
V.3 Which we have heard and known, and our fathers have told us.
V.4 We will not hide [them] from their children, shewing to the generation to come the praises of the LORD, and his strength, and his wonderful works that he hath done.
V.5 For he established a testimony in Jacob, and appointed a law in Israel, which he commanded our fathers, that they should make them known to their children:
V.6 That the generation to come might know [them, even] the children [which] should be born; [who] should arise and declare [them] to their children:
V.7 That they might set their hope in God, and not forget the works of God, but keep his commandments:
V.8 And might not be as their fathers, a stubborn and rebellious generation; a generation [that] set not their heart aright, and whose spirit was not stedfast with God.

As the context shows, this is hundreds of years after the fact and God is warning them not to be disobedent like their fathers had been.

And notice the first line of the Chapter..........
“Give ear, O my people”
This is David, writing to the Jews.

And for sure, they had a problem with “unbelief”, but does that mean that were lost.
Here is something a Jew said to Jesus........
Mark 9:23-24
V.23 Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things [are] possible to him that believeth.
V.24 And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.

But lets go back to Psalms 78:, where you got your quote and see what is said a little later on.......
Psalms 78:37-39
V.37 For their heart was not right with him, neither were they stedfast in his covenant.
V.38 But he, [being] full of compassion, forgave [their] iniquity, and destroyed [them] not: yea, many a time turned he his anger away, and did not stir up all his wrath.
V.39 For he remembered that they [were but] flesh; a wind that passeth away, and cometh not again.

They sound a lot like us(on a bad day), but the LORD forgave them, just like He forgives us.
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Next you quoted........
1 Corinthians 10:6-12
V.6 ¶ Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.
V.7 Neither be ye idolaters, as [were] some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.
V.8 Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.
V.9 Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.
V.10 Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.
V.11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
V.12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

Sure enough those Old Testament Jews were a ornery and God chastened them, but take a look at the first 5 verses of this chapter....
1 Corinthians 10:1-5
V.1 ¶ Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
V.2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
V.3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
V.4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
V.5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.

This is when they were saved and baptized, but later because of disobedience they were overthrown. This can happen to any Christian, but we will not lose our salvation.

Paul was even concern about it.......
1 Corinthians 9:27
“But I keep under my body, and bring [it] into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.”
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“PLEASE”....do not get the idea that I am set in my ways or unteachable in this area.
I am not.

Just give me some Scripture, that is more clearcut.