For All you Calvinists, and otherwise

You love throwing out terms like "heresy." I would gladly give you my opinion of what I heard at this Primitive Baptist church, but will you allow me to use this pejorative term without consequence, or are you the only one who is free to use it?

 

You know, I will say what I think; you do what you want!

At first these primitives sang without instruments for quite a while. I have been in Baptist churches for over 40 years, yet these were hymns I have never heard before. I did notice, thumbing through the hymnal that these songs were written in the 1700's and 1800's. Nothing wrong with either of these points.

Then after this the leader, I guess they call themselves Elders, proceeded to preach. During this sermon he mentioned several times that only those who God chooses to save are the redeemed. I expected this.

Then came the shocker! On at least two occasions he said that even those who never hear the Gospel will be saved if they are the elect. It was all I could do not to make a scene and walk out. I didn't, out of respect to our Lord, I endured it.

Say what you want, to me this is not only hyper-Calvinism, but it does not represent what the Word of God shows to be the Gospel. Thank God when I first choose to trust Christ, I was spared from this well-meaning but erroneous doctrine.

I don't doubt that these people are Christians who love the Lord; they are, however, in grave error in believing this doctrine.

There, and I didn't even use the 'H" word!

 

I'll just offer you a few scriptures for your study; and wish you good luck in your "trying" to understand limited invitation and Calvinism.

(Isa 45:22) Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.

(Isa 45:23) I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

(Isa 45:24) Surely, shall one say, in the LORD have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed.


(2Pe 3:9) The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.


(Psa 145:17) The LORD is righteous in all his ways, and holy in all his works.

(Psa 145:18) The LORD is nigh unto all them that call upon him, to all that call upon him in truth.

(Psa 145:19) He will fulfill the desire of them that fear him: he also will hear their cry, and will save them.

(Psa 145:20) The LORD preserveth all them that love him: but all the wicked will he destroy.


(Jas 4:8) Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.

(Jas 4:9) Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness.

(Jas 4:10) Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.


(Rev 22:17) And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

 

Very well said brother. Thank you.

 

Let me ask you: Do you think a person, other than a child or someone mentally disabled, can be saved without ever hearing the Gospel?

 

Well...then you really don't know what 5-Point Calvinists teach and practice.

Now, I know that you wrote this to counter Dr. Bob's post. But things like this are really unhelpful. To be fair, I'm not sure that Dr. Bob's post was all that helpful, though I agree with his assessment.

The Archangel

 

Well Dr. Bob, with all due respect, I disagree with your assertion that Arminian theology is heresy. But, such is life.

 

Robert, often we find here on BB, "heresy" is in the eye of the beholder.

 

Amy,

I am reminded of a quote by Ronald Reagan.

"Its not that my liberal friends do not know much, its that what they know just isnt so."

Could be adjusted for those of us who are non-Calvinists.

And before the "fiery darts" begin to fly, I am stating this with a warm smile on my face, and still having love in my heart for my "reformed" brethren.

 

Key words: "logical necessity" work very well with understanding, thank you; I simply don't buy into of what Calvinism struggles to teach about those things with are mutually exclusive. ...and frankly, wasn't trying to be helpful to the cause and effect practices of Calvinism.

 

The logical necessity of a "hard determinism" just isn't so in Calvinism (perhaps the heretical hyper-Calvinism, where they state persons can and will be saved without the preaching of the Gospel).

Again, I'm not sure you understand the position thoroughly.

The Archangel

 

Maybe sometime when I'm not studying so much with finals and all we can go into some depth of my understandings on this subject.

Blessings

 

Study well...and blessings on your finals!

BTW, what subjects? Are you going for a degree? If so, which one and at what level?

The Archangel

 

That is precisely why I asked you earlier if your comment was "and" or "or".

 

Most of John Q Churchmember, of any "ilk" have little to limited understanding of "theology" in any formal sense. But most, who would by chance classify themselves as "arminian" would not claim they could "work" for salvation, but I would bet that they would agree with your statemtent that salvation does have a synergistic element to it.

 

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=1618951#post1618951

Excerpt from a PM sent to me from a well known BB member some while back:

It is their belief that “regeneration can remain inactive before it leads to repentance and faith” that gives the Primitives a bad rap.

 

Well, I imagine that Primitive Baptist are no different than other groups, everyone doesn't see things exactly the same.

I am a dispensational pre-millennialist who is neither a Calvinist nor an Armenian. I feel confident that God has lead me to the SBC church I now attend and am comfortable with these beliefs.

 

But there is no "hard determinism" in Calvinism.

The person is led into a right relationship with God on God's timetable, which is not the instant the message is heard or any other time.

One of the errors I've seen in those describing Calvinsim as it is actually practiced is that they seem to hold (falsely) that because God draws the elect and God causes them to be regenerated, that happens against the will, or immediately (determinism). Such is never the case that I can see, nor was it for me, though decidedly a complete work of God.

I hated God, cursed God, and was definitely not "seeking" God in any way, shape, or form. But, God came looking for me. He made Himself known to me. Wooed me. Loved me. Caused me to love Him! Oh, what a glorious day when I finally realized that I did! My heart and mind was changed, from hate and cursing to wishing above all other things to have a relationship with God in Christ! Grace! Glorious grace of a magnificent and loving God!

If it were up to me to go and seek God, I would still be lost and doomed! NO MAN would have convinced me to seek God. Oh, the things I used to do and say to the persons who tried... I get the "utterly depraved" part of Calvinism from a very personal point of view.