For amillenial brothers....thoughts?

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Iconoclast, Aug 18, 2014.

  1. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2010
    Messages:
    13,377
    Likes Received:
    728
    Having left behind Dispensational error...I thought by default I must then be Amillennial.
    Then I found out that some of the men I was reading were in fact postmillennial. I thought of myself as Optimistic Amillennial in that the gospel always accomplishes God's purpose in time.

    Here is a short article on this in between position as I continue to look into this issue. What are your thoughts and scriptures that speak to this:thumbs:

    PESSIMISM AND AMILLENNIALISM

    Amillennialism October 30, 2013 Comments: 3


    PMT 2013-020 by Kenneth L. Gentry, Jr.

    Pessimism OptimismSome amillennialists complain that postmillennialists wrongly categorize them as “pessimistic.” They generally reject this evaluation for two reasons: (1) It is negative sounding in itself, and (2) it overlooks the fact that they argue that ultimately Christ and his people win the victory at the end of history. Still other amillennialists deny this designation because they call themselves “optimistic amillennialists.”

    What do we mean by our categorization of amillennialism as “pessimistic”?

    Obviously all evangelical eschatological perspectives are ultimately optimistic: Christ does lead his people to victory in saving them from their sins, resurrecting them from the dead, and establishing them in righteousness in the eternal order. These issues are not debated among evangelicals: Christianity is of glorious, eternal consequence. But neither are they relevant to debate between the millennial views.

    Historically amillennialism has tended to be pessimistic in terms of the question of widespread, long-lasting cultural success for the Christian faith in time and on earth. That is, regarding these matters:

    First, as a system of gospel proclamation amillennialism teaches that the gospel of Christ will not exercise any majority influence in the world before Christ’s return. They allow that Christianity may enjoy flashes of revival and spurts of growth. Yet, by its very nature the amillennial system cannot allow that Christianity will become the dominant feature of human society and culture.



    DVD debate between Amillennialist Richard Gaffin and Postmillennialist Kenneth Gentry
    “Amillennialism v. Postmillennialism“




    Second, as a system of historical understanding amillennialism, in fact, holds the Bible teaches there are prophetically determined, irresistible trends downward toward chaos in the outworking and development of history. Though some amillennialists understand the great tribulation in the Olivet Discourse as referring (correctly) to the Jewish War and the AD 70 destruction of the temple, their system necessarily demands a prophetically-determined collapse of society in history.

    Third, as a system for the promotion of Christian discipleship amillennialism dissuades the Church from anticipating and laboring for wide-scale success in influencing the world for Christ during this age. In fact, this distinguishes amillennialism and postmillennialism.

    Regarding the question of so-called “optimistic amillennialists,” it seems to me that the verses an amillennialist would use to underscore his optimism are those that endorse a postmillennial perspective. Unless, of course, he is optimistic on grounds other than direct biblical revelation. Therefore, he should come out of the closet and be a postmillennialist.
     
  2. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    17,023
    Likes Received:
    47
    You being a Reformed brother in Christ, would say that your best bet, based upon 'ditching Dispy", would be historical pre mil, as the Gospel itself will not conver the world systems to jesus, that takes him arriving here for that to happen!
     
  3. DHK

    DHK
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    37,982
    Likes Received:
    134
    Wouldn't trust the man:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenneth_Gentry
     
  4. kyredneck

    kyredneck
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    10,548
    Likes Received:
    273
    Sounds wonderful to me.
     
  5. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2010
    Messages:
    13,377
    Likes Received:
    728
    I know all four main positions.All try to cover the biblical teaching.

    I am okay with whatever God has purposed to do.

    Right now I have not seen any slam dunk arguments saying postmill is wrong.

    Some of the better discussions center on Isa 65-66, and their relation to second pet3.


    you cannot show that from scripture, where does it say the reign is on earth


    8 He shall have dominion also from sea to sea, and from the river unto the ends of the earth17 His name shall endure for ever: his name shall be continued as long as the sun: and men shall be blessed in him: all nations shall call him blessed.
    18 Blessed be the Lord God, the God of Israel, who only doeth wondrous things.

    19 And blessed be his glorious name for ever: and let the whole earth be filled with his glory; Amen, and Amen.

    27 All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the Lord: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee.

    28 For the kingdom is the Lord's: and he is the governor among the nations.

    29 All they that be fat upon earth shall eat and worship: all they that go down to the dust shall bow before him: and none can keep alive his own soul.

    30 A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation.

    31 They shall come, and shall declare his righteousness unto a people that shall be born, that he hath done this.
     
    #5 Iconoclast, Aug 18, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 18, 2014
  6. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2010
    Messages:
    13,377
    Likes Received:
    728
    I have read some of his books and there is scriptural support for the teaching.
    he seems to be a nice person. I have only asked him a few questions on facebook...

    I hope to visit his church a few times in this upcoming year, as well as Gary Demar.

    DHK...if you compile a list of questions I will ask them when I see him face to face.....I have heard him about 20 times on sermonaudio,and follow him as a facebook friend.

    Some of the Presbyterians and other reformed persons drift toward theonomy, so I am always cautious with that as they can drift over the line.
     
  7. DHK

    DHK
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    37,982
    Likes Received:
    134
    He is a Presbyterian. Why would a Baptist go to a Presbyterian Church?

    And Gary Demar?
    OR frequently quotes from Dr. Ice.
    Here is what Ice says about Demar:
    http://www.pre-trib.org/articles/view/gary-demars-end-times-fiction
    Telling, isn't it?
     
  8. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2010
    Messages:
    13,377
    Likes Received:
    728
    I have seen Dr.ice take a few lumps from these men

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3WrtZ_H7OU&list=PLDiRnTTAyp8xH8Wb-tK3LCmVOllSSUQMq

    this link is part of a series on youtube...we can all listen and learn the differences.
     
    #8 Iconoclast, Aug 18, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 18, 2014
  9. DHK

    DHK
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    37,982
    Likes Received:
    134
    You know I don't and won't listen to sermons. It is a waste of time for me.
    I wouldn't listen to anything by this man. He is a heretic.
    Look at what he says:
    http://unpreterist.blogspot.ca/2013/01/gary-demar-wants-you-to-be-full.html

    He himself is confused on eschatology. Why should he be trusted?
     
  10. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2010
    Messages:
    13,377
    Likes Received:
    728
    DHK
    years ago my wife and I went to these week long family bible conferences...morning prayer...breakfast...two morning messages..lunch, activites and games in the afternoon...evening message...all week long.

    There were times to mingle with Presbyterians ...and usually one of the 5 speakers would be a Presbyterian. they knew they believed different from the RB's so the topics assigned to them were neutral.

    the messages were excellent ...I believe they are Christians...I do not agree on their biblical view of the Covenant continuity, or ecclesiology.

    They are very close on everything else. I am closer to a solid biblical Presbyterian, than many an evangelical.

    If you listened to sermon links...I would post some for you...if others were curious....listen to any sermon by Sinclair Ferguson, David Silversides, Bill Shishko...Ted Donnely....there are many more
     
  11. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2010
    Messages:
    13,377
    Likes Received:
    728
    The article makes some personal attacks on Him ...even though that is what he was being accused of....he is not a heretic. the article is trying to put words in his mouth.
     
  12. DHK

    DHK
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    37,982
    Likes Received:
    134
    No, that is not the point. There are many "good" Christians from many walks of life. I find them in the Plymouth Brethren, Christian Missionary Alliance, and other evangelical groups.

    But I don't believe in the ecumenical movement. The Bible says "How can two walk together except they be agreed." (Amos 3:3)
    Fellowship is possible for me on a personal level but not on an ecclesiastical level. Thus I would not attend their churches. I would always look for a church of like faith and order to attend.
     
  13. OldRegular

    OldRegular
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2004
    Messages:
    22,678
    Likes Received:
    53
    I am amillennial and optimistic. I am amillennial because I believe amillennial doctrine comports more closely to Scripture than any other. I am optimistic because I know HIM who wins!
     
  14. OldRegular

    OldRegular
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2004
    Messages:
    22,678
    Likes Received:
    53
    Postmillennialism which was a popular view during the 19th century but lost favor with the advent of the two World Wars has undergone somewhat of a renewal in recent years. Proponents of postmillennialism look to the Great Commission and the sovereignty of God as basis in part for the renewal, and often refer to those of other millennial persuasion as “pessimillennialists”. One recent development in postmillennial thought has been labeled theonomy or Christian Reconstructionism.
    Christianity Today was once a reputable source. I cannot say at this time since I no longer read it!
     
  15. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2010
    Messages:
    13,377
    Likes Received:
    728
    Like I said I thought I was an optimistic Amill...based on one section of scripture;

    14 Now thanks be unto God, which always causeth us to triumph in Christ, and maketh manifest the savour of his knowledge by us in every place.

    15 For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish:
    16 To the one we are the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who is sufficient for these things?

    17 For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ.


    This tells me that God wants us to be faithful and accurate in speaking with people and the results belong to Him and I am sure all Christians who know scripture agree on this.

    What I was challenged by was the idea that many of the postmill men were getting much more specific with applying many portions of scripture to both historical events from the first century....and also teaching more about what our participation in the Kingdom right now should be.

    I read and seek to obey any revealed responsibility that I come across.

    Amill...seem more general where postmill are looking for action in this present world.
     
  16. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2010
    Messages:
    13,377
    Likes Received:
    728
    Yes...exactly. At first I was almost offended when I read some of the terms.I tried to set aside my previous views and read it fresh but somewhat skeptical. I balance it by trying to re-read some amill sources...it is a work in progress.

    Dispensational men do not seem to offer a valid challenge.
     
  17. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2010
    Messages:
    13,377
    Likes Received:
    728
     
  18. DHK

    DHK
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    37,982
    Likes Received:
    134
     
  19. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2010
    Messages:
    13,377
    Likes Received:
    728
     
  20. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    17,023
    Likes Received:
    47
    gary demars wrote the reduction of christianity, and he holds to the niew that we are to be a nation ruled by the OT laws as isreal was, and that cannot be supported by the Bible,as ONLY Isreal was given the Law from god to uphold!

    And post mil/amil both still have the problem that satan is the god of this world system until Jesus retums !
     

Share This Page

Loading...