For Arminians Re: Free Will

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by Monergist, Mar 16, 2005.

  1. Monergist

    Monergist
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2002
    Messages:
    1,122
    Likes Received:
    0
    Where does scripture say that a choice ordained by God is not a real choice?
     
  2. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2004
    Messages:
    3,400
    Likes Received:
    0
    If you mean a choice made by God, as in Election, I believe in Election. The problem that I have with the interpretations most observed on this Forum is that those elected ones they cannot identify, have no choice, divine or otherwise. They must come to faith because they are elected to it.

    It would certainly be nice if someone would clearly identify just who those "elect" might be. But alas, God only, knows. Scriptures do not reveal a thing about who the elect might be or who the past elect were. So, we mere mortals can have absolutely no insight into God's planning.
     
  3. Monergist

    Monergist
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2002
    Messages:
    1,122
    Likes Received:
    0
    I'm talking about the objection to calvinism that says that God could not have ordained beforehand all that we do because we would not be able to exercise our own free will in making voluntary choices. In other words, this is the objection that states that divine sovereignity over each and every human action and decision is incompatitable with human free will.

    The question again is, "Where does scripture say that a choice ordained by God is not a real choice? "
     
  4. ILUVLIGHT

    ILUVLIGHT
    Expand Collapse
    Guest

    Monergist;
    Why should I believe that man's choice to believe in God is ordain, or appointed. You want us to prove it doesn't say something which it never said to begin with. The idea that mans choice for Salvation is ordained or appointed hasn't ever been shown to me. Just where would that scripture be?
    May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
    Mike [​IMG]
     
  5. rc

    rc
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    1,068
    Likes Received:
    0
    Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ORDAINED to eternal life believed.

    YLT 2 Thessalonians 2:13 And we -- we ought to give thanks to God always for you, brethren, beloved by the Lord, that God did choose you from the beginning to salvation, in sanctification of the Spirit, and belief of the truth,

    The literal Greek is best for this in 2 Thess 2.13
    The grammar demands this arching,
    God CHOSE you for salvation, God CHOSE you for sanctification, God CHOSE you to BELIEF.

    Oh the beauty of the language that God gave us to UNDERSTAND His doctrines... it makes things so simple. Literally, He chose YOU to BELIEVE.

    God said it, that settles it , BELIEVE it.
     
  6. johnp.

    johnp.
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2004
    Messages:
    3,231
    Likes Received:
    0
  7. johnp.

    johnp.
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2004
    Messages:
    3,231
    Likes Received:
    0
    and then i still forgot the e-mail notification :cool:

    johnp.
     
  8. ILUVLIGHT

    ILUVLIGHT
    Expand Collapse
    Guest

    This says noting about our choice being ordained but says our eternal life was ordained because of believe. You're reading into the text not reading the text.
    The use of so many translations to show a one verse charlie approach to the gospel shows a discontent with what scripture actually says. If it doesn't say what you want in one version look for another version. This is you failing.

    2Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks always to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

    I don't deny that we are chosen by God first.
    How ever it is we who first trust in Christ.

    Eph 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

    Not to mention the KJV says right here in 2nd thess 2:13 that we are chosen through sanctification and belief. Now tell me my version isn't as right as the versions you just brought in.
    I'm not impressed by your estimation of what the Greek says. You see I don't trust in YOU :D

    May Christ Shine His Light On Us all;
    Mike [​IMG]
     
  9. rc

    rc
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    1,068
    Likes Received:
    0
    Reading into the text? READ IT would you!!
    I do believe YOU ADDED because of into the text !! First of all, you added to scripture... this is sin. Secondly you described yourself (not only reading INTO text but ADDING to it) And thirdly and most importantly

    Those who where ORDAINED (perfect tense) BELIEVED (aorist tense). This grammar is used so YOU CAN'T say they were ordained BECAUSE they believed !! YOU CAN"T SAY THAT !!!

    For example:

    Those who jumped in the pool got wet.
    Those ordained believed.

    There is a specific ORDER in the grammar that prevents you from saying ...
    Those got wet then jumped in the pool.
    Those who believed then were ordained.

    It's basic language.
     
  10. RodnStaff

    RodnStaff
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2005
    Messages:
    27
    Likes Received:
    0
    I don't think Acts 13:48 can be used by either Calvinists or Arminians, specifically because the word "ordained" has changed meaning over time. Actually when read in the proper tense, this verse says nothing more than "those who were rightly (or correctly or justly) disposed to eternal life believed." And actually could properly (literally) read "those who had set themselves to eternal life," because the word "tasso" (Gr.) is in the middle voice, not passive.

    Notice how the meaning of "ordained" changed over time:
    Also, Murray, J.A.H. (Ed.), "A New English Dictionary on Historical Principles," Vol. VII, Oxford, 1909, gives the following (amongst very many) definitions from the period prior to 1604:
    Ordain I. †6 To put in order (for a purpose): to prepare, make ready, equip; to
    furnish, provide. Obs.
    1500-20 DUNBAR Poems lxxii. 242 Ordain for him a resting place ...
    1535 COVERDALE Ps. vii. 13 He has ... ordained his arrows to destroy.

    1548 HALL Chron., Hen. VIII 74 Chimneys, ranges, and such instruments that there was ordained. †b. To fit out, equip, or furnish (a person, etc.) with (in, of) something. Obs.
    1548 BODRUGAN (Adams) Epit. King's Title Hj, Nature ... ordained all beasts with some natural munition, as horn, spur, tooth or nail.

    †7 To put into a particular mental condition or disposition; to dispose (aright). Obs.
    1502 Ord. Crysten Men 11.XV.123 By these 7 last commandments we be perfectly and justly ordained against our neighbours.

    †8 To prepare oneself, make ready; to set or apply oneself (to do something). Obs.
    1493 Festivall 78 Afterward he ordained himself and went into the holy land. II. 11 Eccl. To appoint or admit to the ministry of the Christian Church; ...
    1588 J. UDALL Demonstr. Discipl. 20 The Apostles ordained bishops everywhere. 13 Of the Deity, fate, or supernatural power. To appoint as part of the order of the universe or of nature; to decree, predestine, destine.
    1611 BIBLE Isa. 26:12.

    (http://www.midclyth.supanet.com/page21.htm)
     
  11. RodnStaff

    RodnStaff
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2005
    Messages:
    27
    Likes Received:
    0
    "For example:

    Those who jumped in the pool got wet.
    Those ordained believed.

    There is a specific ORDER in the grammar that prevents you from saying ...
    Those got wet then jumped in the pool.
    Those who believed then were ordained."

    Actually, the proper rendering would be "those jumped in the pool who were prepared (braced) to get wet" or "those who were prepared for wetness jumped in the pool."
     
  12. rc

    rc
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    1,068
    Likes Received:
    0
    Nice try "Dave Hunt"....

    Do you always resort to Cult Bibles for answers?

    The problem is that you (and Dave Hunt and Norm Geisler) ignore the actual text. Acts 13.48 uses a construction that indicates that the action had been taken IN THE PAST and was COMPLETED in the PAST. That is, a pluperfect tense meaning to a periphrastic construction using a perfect passive participle with an imperfect form of "eimi".

    The Liddell and Scott Greek dictionary reveals under sec III number 2 you have "to appoint, ordain" with an almost identical participial form cited as an example. Further, Liddell and Scott is not a "koine" Greek lexicon.

    This is a tremendous example of eisegesis.

    Luke uses this verb, in the passive, to clearly mean "appoint" elsewhere. For example:

    ESV Acts 22:10 And I said, 'What shall I do, Lord?' And the Lord said to me, 'Rise, and go into Damascus, and there you will be told all that is APPOINTED for you to do.'

    No one would suggest that we should understand this to mean "you will be told of all that you have appointed yourself to do" for "all you have judged yourself worth of doing." The same is true in Acts 28.23 where they "set a day" for Paul's hearing, again using the passive form of the same verb. Paul was not "disposed toward" a date, he was APPOINTED a date. I could go on and on... Look at Romans 13.1 ! Same construction.

    So....

    This is a periphrastic construction. The result is that the phrase must be translated as a "pluperfect" in other words "a completed action in the past"
     
  13. rc

    rc
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    1,068
    Likes Received:
    0
    Actually, the proper rendering would be "those jumped in the pool who were prepared (braced) to get wet" or "those who were prepared for wetness jumped in the pool.

    This is just dumb...
     
  14. Monergist

    Monergist
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2002
    Messages:
    1,122
    Likes Received:
    0
    Why should I believe that man's choice to believe in God is ordain, or appointed. </font>[/QUOTE]The 'choice' doesn't have to be whether or not to believe in God-- although it could be; but for the sake of argument let's say that it could be ANY choice. Let's look at some specific examples.

    For example, God told Moses that He was going to harden Pharoah's heart BEFORE Moses ever went to see Pharoah, and yet Pharoah chose to harden his own heart.

    God pre-ordained that wicked and sinful men would crucify His Son, yet these men chose to put Christ to death.

    I could give dozens of examples from scripture from the general to the specific but the teaching of scripture is clear; God ordains certain decisions and actions of men beforehand, yet recognizes that men exercise their own choices in carrying out what has been predetermined.

    The problem is that the Arminian objection to the proper and biblical calvinist understanding of scripture is simply an assumption based on a non-biblical presuppostion, not on specific texts of scripture.

    So the questtion remains unanswered-- Where does scripture say that a choice ordained by God is not a real choice?
     
  15. RodnStaff

    RodnStaff
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2005
    Messages:
    27
    Likes Received:
    0
    RC, as far as "cult" Bibles. Actually, the Emphatic Diaglot and some others do translate this properly. It (Emphatic Diaglot) was not a "cult" Bible, but was used and twisted by a cult to suit their own purposes. Don't get silly. I think the KJV is a cult Bible, since it is used by the "KJV-only" cults. Just using your reasoning there. [​IMG]

    Now let's see where else in the Bible the word is used

    Acts 13:48
    Romans 13:1 having been set in order same bar 1 letter

    Verses with words translated "ordained"
    1 Cor. 2:7 defined beforehand (i.e., foreordained)
    1 Cor. 9:14 ordained
    Eph. 2:10 he prepared before
    Jude 4 having been written before

    Notice that Romans 13:1 is the closest match to the Greek word. The other words translated "ordained" or something similar are completely different.

    Facts are that the word "ordain" here likely does not mean the same thing that it once did, since anytime before 1933 (!) the definition included "prepared," To put into a particular mental condition or disposition; to properly dispose. And again, it is in the middle voice, not passive!

    "the participle translated "had been appointed to" (tetagmenoi) is the middle-passive voice form of tasso.

    In Greek, the same form is used to designate both the middle voice and the passive voice. The NASB translates it in the passive voice (the subject receives the action). However, if it is translated in the middle voice (the subject initiates the action), the passage would read ". . .as many as set themselves to eternal life believed." This translation resolves the difficulty"

    (http://www.xenos.org/classes/principles/cpu1w6.htm)
     
  16. icthus

    icthus
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2005
    Messages:
    1,114
    Likes Received:
    0
    Your question shows that you do not understand what you are asking.

    If God were to foreordain any act, than how can it be said to be an act that was made by choice? "Choice" equates "freewill", to "foreordain" means that the will of man in under the controlling force of God, and therefore not "free".

    Calvinism denies what the Bible teaches on freewill!
     
  17. Monergist

    Monergist
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2002
    Messages:
    1,122
    Likes Received:
    0
    Your question shows that you do not understand what you are asking.

    If God were to foreordain any act, than how can it be said to be an act that was made by choice? "Choice" equates "freewill", to "foreordain" means that the will of man in under the controlling force of God, and therefore not "free".

    Calvinism denies what the Bible teaches on freewill!
    </font>[/QUOTE]On the contrary, I understand perfectly what I am asking. I'm asking where the Bible states what you say--"to "foreordain" means that the will of man in under the controlling force of God, and therefore not "free"."

    Unless you can show where scripture teaches that, you are bringing your prior, non-biblical assumption to scripture and forcing your interpretation upon it.

    In short, you are giving your idea of a Foreordination/free-will conflict higher authority than what God explicitly says.
     
  18. icthus

    icthus
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2005
    Messages:
    1,114
    Likes Received:
    0
    The Bible clearly states, like in John 5:39-40, that man does have a freewill and choses to use it to reject the free offer of eternal life. You still do not understand what the words "preordain" and "freewill" means. If God is active in "ordaining" any act that man carries out, then it is not the person that is doing it, but God who is enabling him to do it.

    It is quite pointless in trying to explain the diifference between the various terms, as it is evident that the Calvinist is blinded to the actual truth, and will keep on asking pointless questions that are complete nonsense and contradict what Scriprure teaches
     
  19. rc

    rc
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    1,068
    Likes Received:
    0
    I have 70 versioins on hand... sorry , it's always ordained.

    You don't know Greek do you "RnS".

    This is a periphrastic construction. The result is that the phrase must be translated as a "pluperfect" in other words "a completed action in the past" .

    If you do you are only in 101 or 201 class.....

    It's not just the word that you look at. It's the CONSTRUCTION ! Take 4 more years of Greek.
    You out of your league her my boy and don't have a leg to stand on, and if you are using the Diaglot you are VERY desperate and misinformed.
     
  20. Monergist

    Monergist
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2002
    Messages:
    1,122
    Likes Received:
    0
    Nowhere here have I denied that man has a will and is free to make his own choices. I believe that scripture affirms this to be true & I believe that Calvinism affirms this to be true. That isn't the issue.

    In order to be specific, let me choose just one passage of scripture (out of many) that illustrates my point. In Exodus chapter 4 God gives Moses a job to do, namely-- Go confront Pharoah. Then in verse 21 God says "When you go back to Egypt, see that you do before Pharaoh all the miracles that I have put in your power. But I will harden his heart, so that he will not let the people go."

    Here God announces to Moses an intended action (hardening Pharoah's heart) and an intended result (Pharoah refusing to let the people go).

    Then a little later we see it coming to pass just as God said. Exo 7:13 Still Pharaoh's heart was hardened, and he would not listen to them, as the LORD had said. Exo 7:14 Then the LORD said to Moses, "Pharaoh's heart is hardened; he refuses to let the people go.

    Have I misrepresented anything so far?

    Here's where it gets tricky--Exo 8:15 But when Pharaoh saw that there was a respite, he hardened his heart and would not listen to them, as the LORD had said.

    OK, a quick review.

    1. God announced a plan to harden Pharoah's heart.

    2. God's action would determine a specific response from Pharoah.

    3.Pharoah's heart was hardened.

    4. Pharoah hardened his own heart.

    5.Pharoah responded just like God said he would.

    Now, here's what I believe. I believe that God preordained Pharoah's "choice" and I believe that Pharoah made his "choice" freely. I hope that's clear.

    So here's the question again that still has not been answered---

    Where does scripture say that a choice ordained by God is not a real choice?
     

Share This Page

Loading...