For By Grace Are Ye Saved

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by OldRegular, Oct 20, 2009.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. OldRegular

    OldRegular
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2004
    Messages:
    22,678
    Likes Received:
    53
    I suspect that most Baptists who participate on this Forum believe that those who are saved are saved by the Grace of GOD. Yet many of those same people say that they must make the final decision in their own salvation, the decision to accept the Grace of GOD.

    However, if I make the final decision regarding my salvation does that not deny the truth of the Scripture that states: For by grace are ye saved.?
     
  2. Marcia

    Marcia
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2004
    Messages:
    11,139
    Likes Received:
    0
    Not if it's by grace that we see the need to be saved, or realize we are not saved and we need it.
     
  3. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2006
    Messages:
    38,273
    Likes Received:
    777
    I miss your personal correlation between grace and a personal decision. Can you clarify for me?
     
  4. OldRegular

    OldRegular
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2004
    Messages:
    22,678
    Likes Received:
    53
    If my salvation is dependent on my decision then it appears to me that salvation is not by Grace alone. Salvation would require both the Grace of God to provide the means and the individual decision to accept or reject that means, essentially making me sovereign in my salvation. This I reject. Hope that answers your question.

    I believe sometime back there was a thread on monergism vs synergism. At that time the terms were new to me and I did not participate. I suppose this is essentially a repeat but repetition is a great tool for understanding.
     
  5. Amy.G

    Amy.G
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2006
    Messages:
    13,103
    Likes Received:
    0
    Salvation is a gift. But you have to receive it. If I offer you a gift and reach out to give it you, you must reach out to take it. If you keep your hands in your pockets, you will not receive the gift. It's your choice to receive it or not.
    God payed for His gift to us Himself. He offers it out of love for us, but we have to receive it. If He forces it on us, then it ceases to be a gift. This in no way diminishes God's sovereignty. It was His work that payed for our gift and His choice to give it.
     
  6. Benefactor

    Benefactor
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2009
    Messages:
    264
    Likes Received:
    0
    No, you fail to quote all of the verse thus misrepresenting the truth to teach a false doctrine. There are "tons" of verses that refute the notion you posit. Luke 7:50, Romans 3 and 10 and Titus 3:5.

    For by grace you are saved by faith …..

    God's grace
    Man's faith
    equals the gift of salvation

    the problem is this:

    If one repeats something enough one will began to believe a lie in many cases.

    Man's faith is a work
    Man's faith is a word
    Man's faith is a word
    Man's faith is a work
    Man's faith is a word
    Man's faith is a word

    Say it over and over again and eventually a person might start believe a lie. Scripture nowhere teaches that man's faith is a work

    I challenge all to produce one passage that teaches that believing faith is a work, your faith, his faith, their faith, our faith etc. are not works, never was never will be. To say it is - is to call the Scripture a liar. If the scripture say "your faith has saved you" accept it and move on and stop trying to pervert that word by changing it.
     
    #6 Benefactor, Oct 20, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 20, 2009
  7. swaimj

    swaimj
    Expand Collapse
    <img src=/swaimj.gif>

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2000
    Messages:
    3,426
    Likes Received:
    0
    "But as many are received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in his name." John 1:12

    This verse shows that becoming a child of God is the result of believing and receiving. Believing and receiving are synonyms. They are passive acts in response to the gospel that result in salvation.
     
  8. Havensdad

    Havensdad
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2007
    Messages:
    3,382
    Likes Received:
    0
    Time to derail the thread...

    What does your screen name mean? I have always wondered...
     
  9. OldRegular

    OldRegular
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2004
    Messages:
    22,678
    Likes Received:
    53
    Somewhere somehow the mistaken idea has been planted in peoples minds that GOD forces something on us. That is a sad interpretation of the Grace of GOD. GOD changes us through regeneration and gives us the gift of faith whereby we are delighted to accept that which HE has prepared for those HE has chosen unto Salvation in Jesus Christ.

    2 Corinthians 5:17, KJV
    17. Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
     
  10. OldRegular

    OldRegular
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2004
    Messages:
    22,678
    Likes Received:
    53
    Are you denying that Salvation is by the Grace of GOD? Furthermore, the OP does not claim that faith is a work. You will have to deal with that problem!
     
    #10 OldRegular, Oct 20, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 20, 2009
  11. Benefactor

    Benefactor
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2009
    Messages:
    264
    Likes Received:
    0
    The question is do you deny the following?

    Jesus told the woman "your faith has saved you" Do you deny that the woman's faith saved her? Are you willing to call Jesus a liar? I don't think will are but I am just checking to make sure.
     
    #11 Benefactor, Oct 20, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 20, 2009
  12. Allan

    Allan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2006
    Messages:
    6,888
    Likes Received:
    0
    So you desired God to change you?
    You asked God to make you want to love him?

    If you didn't then the fact remains God has forced you to love, forced you to obey, forced you believe. If a person didn't desire or want something/someone and then something was done against their will in order to change that original view, then the usage of the term 'forced' is both proper and accurate.

    Are we not always told to remember by our reformed brethren that the potter has power over the clay, He can do with it what He likes regardless of you and your will. I personally don't understand why those of the reformed position are so afraid to acknowledge the above truth.

    Yep, if any man be "In Christ" he is a new creature - meaning saved, in unity with God and direct fellowship due to the removal of sin that they might be one.

    Can one be in fellowship with God if they are still in their transgressions, ie sins? (IOW - If we are still in our transgression then we are still dead)
    You can not be in the light (Christ) if you still retain your sins? (what unity is there between righteousness and unrighteousness?)
    Can one turn from 'darkness' if they are already 'in' the light?


    The answer to all the above is the same - No.
    Therefore it is abundantly clear that one can not be 'in Christ' and not yet saved.
     
    #12 Allan, Oct 20, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 21, 2009
  13. AresMan

    AresMan
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2005
    Messages:
    1,636
    Likes Received:
    0
    Yes. That is the characteristic of one that God has changed. ;) When God regenerates, justifies, and sanctifies someone, that person desires more sanctification, even though God does these things.

    Your use of the word forced implies that God makes someone do something that he does not want to do. God does not compel someone to do something against his will, but rather He changes one's will through regeneration so that his desires are different. In the end, the person is still always doing what he most wants to do. To call it "forced" to imply a malicious or "divine rape" angle is disingenuous or misunderstanding the Reformed position.
     
  14. AresMan

    AresMan
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2005
    Messages:
    1,636
    Likes Received:
    0
    Possession does not denote arbitration. Jesus because it was "her faith" does not mean that she summoned it from her own self through her fallen nature. It was "her faith" because she possessed it. It was in her. She had it. The statement does not mean that she created it.
     
  15. Allan

    Allan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2006
    Messages:
    6,888
    Likes Received:
    0
    Sorry but scripture states that we are justified by faith, and that we are sanctified by faith. We are never justified nor sanctified prior to faith.

    But yes, the process of sanctification in our daily lives is on going but fact of our spiritual sanctifition is complete, in that we are seperated from the world and unto God is by faith.

    Yes, you will get all kinds of things when you cherry-pick and take thing from their context - even from me.

    So again I ask but this time I ask YOU, but to help you understand my point - the questions are with respect to regeneration:
    The fact is you believe God regenerates a person apart from any request or desire on the person part but actaully does so against your will. You did not desire it and the fact is you didn't want it at all - according to the reformed view. Therefore God forced Himself upon you and made you like it - to put it rather bluntly and sort of crass. God is the potter and we are the clay. And He can do whatever He wishes to it regardless of the clay's feeling, wishes, or desires.

    There are a few in the reformed group who doesn't see a problem with stating as such. For example - Prof. (Dr.) Gage at Knox Presbytarian Seminary who got into some trouble last year (I think) over teaching things like "the description of spiritual regeneration as the “spiritual rape” of an individual". So it isn't such a stretch for even the few in the Reformed view to see the above as describing their position. I'm not saying this is the view of those Reformed though - don't get me wrong here. However since when does a mans feelings or desires determine what God will or will not do? Again, Is he not the Potter and we the clay?

    But I ask you again.
    Before God regenerated you, you know, while you hated him and despised him and what-not..
    Did you ask him to regenerate you?
    To make you love Him?
    To make you obey Him?
    To make you desire Him?
    Or
    Did God, against your will (force), 'take you' and make you His so that you have no other choice but to love, obey, and desire Him?


    Editted in - I'm not necessarily against you making this statement about 'force' (and some others who are Cals/Reformed on the BB, such as Jarther) agree that God does in fact 'force'. That is the actaul and logical position of the Reformed view no matter how much some want it to be called something else.
     
    #15 Allan, Oct 21, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 21, 2009
  16. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2006
    Messages:
    38,273
    Likes Received:
    777
    So then the will is changed against their will. To impose the word malicious is to lack understanding of those not of the Reformed position. It is not necessary to equate forced with malice.
     
  17. Allan

    Allan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2006
    Messages:
    6,888
    Likes Received:
    0
    Thank you and precisely true :thumbs:
     
  18. kyredneck

    kyredneck
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    10,545
    Likes Received:
    272
    even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace have ye been saved), Eph 2:5


    I don't care what elaborate definitions of grace the theologians have come up with over the years. The scriptual definition:

    Grace is being brought to life from the dead.
     
  19. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2006
    Messages:
    38,273
    Likes Received:
    777
    He who has the power and authority to give salvation gets the credit for salvation regardless of what response He may require from those He saves. It matters not that God requires a response of the will from man for at least two reasons:

    1. God gives man the ability to reason even within himself and the will that rejects God is just as much given to man as the will to receive God is. The ability to go one way or the other is in everyone and given at birth.

    2. It matters not how much will man has, the will cannot save man itself. Only the person with the power and authority to offer it can. If man wills himself to be saved and God offers it not then man is left without a Savior still. The credit is therefore only applied to the one who holds it and offers it.
     
  20. OldRegular

    OldRegular
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2004
    Messages:
    22,678
    Likes Received:
    53
    Allan,
    Your problem is that you do not understand the source of FAITH.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page

Loading...