For the Sins of the Whole World

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Jerry Shugart, Dec 16, 2011.

  1. Jerry Shugart

    Jerry Shugart
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    Here we can see that the Lord Jesus is referred to as the "atoning sacrifice" for the "sins of the whole world":

    "He is the atoning sacrifice (hilasmos) for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world" (1 Jn.2:2; NIV).

    The Greek word translated "atoning sacrifice" is hilasmos and in the Greek version of the OT (the LXX) that word is translated as "ram of atonement":

    "But if the man has no relative to whom restitution may be made for the wrong, the restitution which is made for the wrong must go to the LORD for the priest, besides the ram of atonement (hilasmos),by which atonement is made for him" (Num.5:8).

    So we can understand that John refers to the Lord Jesus as the "ram of atonement" for the sins of the whole world.

    This completely destroys the teaching of Calvinists that the Lord Jesus did not die on behalf of all men.
     
  2. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
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    He is speaking of SATISFACTION for wrong! He is speaking to Jewish believers who had real problems embracing gentiles into the congregation on an equal level with Jewish believers. One way the Jews understood and used the word "world" is found in Romans 11:11-12 as an interchangable term for "gentiles."

    Jewish believers would not even go to the Gentiles. Peter had to have a vision repeated three times for him to go to the gentiles. Even then he was such a skeptic that he brought witnesses with him to the house of Cornelius. A great part of the congregation called him in on the red carpet for doing it as they were so opposed to going to the Gentiles. The problem was so severe among the Jewish congregations that God used the Gentile congregation at Antioch and called another apostle to go to the gentiles.

    Hence, John impresses upon these Jewish believers that God provided in Christ a complete SATISFACTION for sins of the "WHOLE WORLD" meaning Jews and gentiles alike as the WHOLE WORLD consists of either being a Jew or a Gentile.
     
  3. marke

    marke
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    Exactly. Jesus bought the field and all those in the field (including the false prophets of 2 Pet. 2:1), in order that He might have the treasure in the field. (Matt. 13:44).
     
  4. The Biblicist

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    If he purchased them then they are his to do what He wills with his own, correct? So the potter can fashion one vessel to honor and another to dishonor can he not and none can charge him with injustice, correct?
     
  5. marke

    marke
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    You are correct. God makes the rules and sets the standards. If He says He will save all those who call upon Him for salvation, then He MUST save all those who call upon Him for salvation, because He cannot lie. If he pleads for souls to consider the judgment facing them for sins and reasons with them to turn from those sins, promising salvation or condemnation as a consequence of their own choice, then He MUST either save or condemn them based upon the conditions laid out before them in His arguments.

    Those who reject Him and never repent will be made vessels of dishonor while on earth, but God doesn't necessarily give up on them the first time they reject Him. Consider the depth of God's love and compassion on those vessels who reject Him to their own hurt in Jer. 18:4, "And the vessel that He made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so He made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it." Thank God He is a God of 2nd or 3rd chances, ever willing to forgive those who humbly repent and turn to Him for forgiveness. He doesn't want to throw people out with the trash in the potter's field, He wants them to be saved.

    Look at Eze. 18:21, "But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die." In Isa. 1, God asked the burning heartaching question, "Why will ye die?"

    In Eze. 18:31-32, "Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel? For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the lord God: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye."
     
  6. Jerry Shugart

    Jerry Shugart
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    No, the verse is saying that Christ is the atoning sacrifice and that His sacrifice is for the sins of the whole world.

    The Apostle John sees the Lord Jesus as the antitype of the ram which was sacrificed on the day of atonement and says that His death is for "the sins of the whole world."

    Likewise, the author of the book of Hebrews says that the Lord Jesus tasted death for everyone:

    "But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone" (Heb.2:9).
     
  7. The Biblicist

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    The word translated "everyone" simply means "all" and "all" in the context is carefully defined:

    Heb. 2:10 ¶ For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.


    Heb. 2:11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,

    Heb. 2:13 And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.

    Heb. 2:14 ¶ Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;


    Heb. 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
     
  8. The Biblicist

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    You are reversing the Biblical context of cause and effects. The analogy of the potter is introduced by a contextual definition of "mercy" that is not the consequence of "he that willeth or he that runneth but of God that sheweth mercy".

    In the analogy of the Potter, the vessel is formed abritrarily by the will of the Potter and nature of the vessel the consequence rather than the cause.

    Neither does the vessel of dishonor go through a transition period where it becomes a vessel of dishonor.

    Furthermore, it can be equally argued that scriptures such as "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved" does not set forth conditions to be met but rather is a declaration of fact that will be born out by those ordained to eternal life (Acts 13:48).

    God's great love is manifested in mercy upon those equally justifiable as objects of wrath other than God's good pleasure to be objects of mercy rather than wrath even as others.
     
  9. Jerry Shugart

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    So according to your view when the author of Hebrews said "all" he really meant "many." Here are some more verses which you can mis-interpret:

    "To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation" (2 Cor.5:19).

    "And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven" (Col.1:20).

    "For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved" (Jn.3:17).

    "I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world" (Jn.6:51).

    "And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world" (Jn.4:42).

    "And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world" (1 Jn.4:14).

    "But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man" (Heb.2:9).

    "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time" (1 Tim.2:6).
    "
    For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe" (1 Tim.4:10).

    "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me" (Jn.12:32).

    "For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men" (Titus 2:11).

    "The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe" (Jn.1:7).

    "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance" (2 Pet.3:9).

    "Therefore, as by the offense of one, judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one, the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life" (Ro.5:18).
     
  10. The Biblicist

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    No! He meant "all" and "all means "all"! If you are talking about "all" dogs then you are not talking about "all" cats. Therefore "all" dogs means "all" dogs and not just "many" dogs.

    The context makes it clear he is talking about "all" that were given him by the Father and "all' means "all" of that contextually defined class of men.
     
  11. marke

    marke
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    I do not agree with hard-line calvinist positions. God reasons with lost men to consider their ways and turn themselves to God before they die in their sins. God has chosen the foolishness of preaching to save them which believe and asks, "How shall they hear without a preacher".

    God did not explain that 'they cannot possibly hear a preacher anyway until I save them, so sending men to preach is unnecessary.' Did God choose to save men before they could hear, then, or did God choose to save men through the foolishness of preaching they could hear before they were saved?
     
  12. The Biblicist

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    Nevertheless, you had to reverse the Biblical order of cause and effects to defend your theory. If that is what you have to do with some parts of the Bible to defend your theory then why should anyone accept your theory as Biblical?

    Election is of grace (Rom. 11:5) and therefore unconditional and must be because there is none that seeketh after God by their own free choice (Rom. 3:11) as they "always resist the Holy Ghost" (Acts 7:51) and if God left man completely to his own free choice none would be saved. Hence, elective grace is the mercy of God saving a great number of men that justly deserve wrath even as others.

    The Apostle Paul is set forth as the example of salvation of God's elect. He was on his way to persecute and kill Christians and Christ intervened and changed Paul's heart in spite of himself so that he explains his own salvation by grace as characteristic of his first birth wherein he played absolutely no causation but both his first and second birth were according God's timing and good pleasure by divine revelation:

    Gal. 1:15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother’s womb, and called me by his grace,
    16 To reveal his Son in me
    ,

    Nothing prevents the cheif of sinner from coming to Christ but their own free choice to resist and reject Christ.

    Nothing obtains the free choice by the cheif of sinners to come to Christ but the elective free grace of God.

    The only reason sinners can not come to Christ by their own free choice is because they will not come to Christ by their own free choice and the only reason they will not come to Christ by their own free choice is because they love darkness and hate the light. (Jn. 3:18-20) Sinners will never come to the light until God gives them a new heart (Deut. 29:4 with Ezek. 36:26) that hates darkness and loves the light as that is the only kind of heart that comes to the light for "with the heart man believeth." (Rom. 10:10)

    God has chosen a people to give to his son to save and has chosen the means to save those people (2 Thess. 2:13). He has chosen the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe but none will repent and believe the gospel as long as the gospel comes in word only (1 Thes. 1:4-5). To the elect it comes not in word only but in power and in the Holy Spirit and in much assurance. Therefore it is not him that willeth or him that runneth but of God that sheweth mercy.
     
    #12 The Biblicist, Dec 17, 2011
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  13. Jerry Shugart

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    If you actually think that that is right then just fill in the blank with a word which fits one of the meaning of the word kosmos given by the Greek experts:

    "He is the atoning sacrifice (hilasmos) for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole ___________ " (1 Jn.2:2; NIV).

    While you are at it fill in the blank in the following verse:

    "To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the ________ unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation" (2 Cor.5:19).
     
  14. The Biblicist

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    You have switched from texts that use the term "all" to texts that use the term "world". Since the argument was over the contextual meaning of "all" than I would simply replace "the whole world" with the term "all" as defined previously by the context - "all mankind without distinction." Since the word "whole" is equivilent to "all" I have replaced it with "all" and since "mankind without distinction" is equivilent to "world" I have replaced it.

    I]"He is the atoning sacrifice (hilasmos) for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of ALL MANKIND WITHOUT DISTINCIONS "[/I] (1 Jn.2:2; NIV).

    "He is the atoning sacrifice (hilasmos) for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of ALL MANKIND WITHOUT DISTINCTION" (1 Jn.2:2; NIV).

    Now, you are not going to like what I have done but you asked how I would do it and so I have answered you.
     
  15. Jerry Shugart

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    You continue to insist that that is one of the meanings of the Greek word translated "world" but I keep waiting for you to supply the name of a Greek expert who says that kosmos carries that meaning.
     
  16. The Biblicist

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    I supplied the very different uses of the term "world" in the scripture and you gave no response! It definition differs by contextual use. I pointed out the different contextual definitions. You gave no response. I shewed it can be used for a limited classification of mankind as a synonym for Gentiles (Rom. 11:11-12). I shewed it can be used for a world SYSTEM that Christ refused to pray for and John denies we should love (Jn. 17; 1 Jn. 2). I shewed it could be used as a hyperbole meaning a restricted number of people. I shewed it could be used for the whole created cosmic universe. I showed it could be used for habitable earth, etc,

    You gave no response!
     
  17. marke

    marke
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    The wrong opinions of Calvinists are the result of failing to comprehend the whole of scritpure. If their view was correct and there were no other scriptures in contradiction to those views, then their position would be unassailable. As it is, given their base assumptions and using only the scriptures which support those assumptions, it is understandable that they cannot see the errors of their position.

    You have outlined the Calvinist position fairly succinctly.

    The Apostle Paul said to Agrippa, "King Agrippa, believest thou the prophets? I know that thou believest." Paul knew he was not talking to a dead man who could not hear and believe the scriptures, and he knew the problem was not that they could not hear and believe, but that they chose not to obey the scriptures they knew to be true, like those reprobates in Rom. 1.

    A choice God reasons with them over in Isa. 1, "Come now and let us reason together... If ye be willing and obedient... But if ye refuse and rebel..." The choice is man's. God has reconciled the world unto Himself by the shed blood of Jesus Christ, and we are His ambassadors to plead with the world to be reconciled to God. The choice it theirs, however, and God will not make it for them.

    If it were true that God is pleased to create sinners for the pleasure of sending them to hell, this would be true, but God has no pleasure in the death of the wicked, a fact omitted in Calvinist doctrine which is at the root of their error.

    This view, again, is based on the whole of scriptures compiled by Calvinists which support their unique doctrines, but when other contradicting scriptures are injected into the discussion, Calvinist positions must be reformulated in order to fit those scriptures, and reformulated Calvinist positions which accomodate all scriptures are no longer Calvinist at all. No doctrine should leave out any scriptures at any time. Man does not live by one word or even some words of God, but by every word of God.

    The fact that election is not based on works is another problem for Calvinists. Men do not go to hell for just any sin, but only for rejecting the word of God and not repenting of that sin when they know God is telling them the truth, just like in Agrippa's situation. People don't go to hell in ignorance, contrary to Calvinist ideas. Sin is not imputed when there is no law (Rom. 5). If Jesus had not done among them the works that proved He was of God, then they would not have had sin (John 15). All sins and blasphemies shall be forgiven all men (Mark 3), except for the sin of disrespect and rejection of the Holy Ghost at the time the Holy Spirit is enlightening them and drawing them to Christ (John 1 & 12). God, in Christ, reconciled the world unto Himself and sends us out to tell others that fact, pointing out that sin is no longer an obstacle keeping them from coming to God for God no longer is imputing their trespasses unto them (2 Cor. 5)
     
  18. Jerry Shugart

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    I did respond. I said that none of the verses which you quoted prove that the meaning of the Greek word translated "world" that you gave is correct.

    I continue to wait for the name of even one Greek expert who gives your meaning of the word kosmos.

    By the way, what are your credentials in the Greek language? Why should anyone believe that the Greek experts overlooked a meaning for that word, a meaning which only you are aware of?
     
  19. The Biblicist

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    Where is your post? Where did you demonstrate your meaning of world in John 17 where Jesus said he does not pray for the world? What world was that? The world he so loved? Why then did John say whoever loves the world the love of God is not in him? Did Jesus not have the love of God in him because he refused to pray for the world? Did John not have the love of God in him because he commanded us not to love the world? Did God not have the love of God in Him because he so loved the world that Jesus refused to pray for and that John commanded us not to love because if we did the love of the Father is not in us? Show me how one definition fits all these passages? Show me where the term world means all mankind without exception when they said Paul turned the world upside down? Or where the Pharisees said that the world had gone after him? Where is your post that you say you have?

    Where did you respond to such uses of the term world? Where did you prove the word "world" means the same thing in every context? Where is that post?
     
    #19 The Biblicist, Dec 17, 2011
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  20. savedbymercy

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    For the sins of the whole World merely means for the sins of men and women of every tribe, tongue and Nation. Abraham's Spiritual Seed Gen 17:5

    5Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.

    That equals out to Rev 5:9

    9And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

    Thats the Whole World of Abraham's Seed, the Elect !
     

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