For you Hebrew scholars

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Debby in Philly, Feb 6, 2006.

  1. Debby in Philly

    Debby in Philly
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2003
    Messages:
    2,537
    Likes Received:
    0
    Consider this verse in English in the KJV:

    Leviticus 20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

    I have heard that it is claimed that in Luther's German Bible, the reference to "mankind" here was translated "knabe," which means "youth" or "boy." That would change the meaning of this to one of child abuse. What is the original Hebrew? Is this true about Luther's translation?
     
  2. Humblesmith

    Humblesmith
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2005
    Messages:
    698
    Likes Received:
    0
    I don't know about Luther's old German, but the many English translations are consistent. I can't believe that a dozen or more translation committees and the standard lexicons are all wrong.

    On the NT Greek side, I recently heard a PhD from University of Texas claim a similar thing. He listed a dozen English translations that "were all wrong." When he was challenged with the latest lexicon (which specifically disagreed with him) he said the lexicon was wrong (!) and referred to an older one. I checked four lexicons, and they all disagreed with this man's position, and all agreed with the standard English translations.

    Trust your English translations. They are correct. Homosexuality is wrong. If God wanted to use the word "boy" He wouldn't have said "mankind." There's not a Hebrew or Greek scholar on the planet that disagrees.
     
  3. Boanerges

    Boanerges
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2005
    Messages:
    591
    Likes Received:
    0
    Philly Deb:
    I have heard that it is claimed that in Luther's German Bible, the reference to "mankind" here was translated "knabe," which means "youth" or "boy." That would change the meaning of this to one of child abuse. What is the original Hebrew? Is this true about Luther's translation?


    W 'iysh asher yishkab et-zakar
    iysh is man
    zakar can mean the following. This is KJV translation occurrences:
    AV - male 67, man 7, child 4, mankind 2, him 1; 81
     
  4. exscentric

    exscentric
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 24, 2004
    Messages:
    4,217
    Likes Received:
    16
    For discussion. Not a Hebrew person, but Gen. 17.10, 12, 14 and Lev. 12.2 use the same term.
     
  5. Charles Meadows

    Charles Meadows
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2003
    Messages:
    2,276
    Likes Received:
    0
    Zakar means male - there is no implication of a boy or a young man here. It (I think) is thought that the word actually is derived from a term referring to the male sexual organs.

    Probably the reason zakar is used here (instead of "ish") is to emphasize the male gender of the other person.

    W'ish asher yishkav et-zakar means "and a man who has sexual relations with a MALE"...
     
  6. Deacon

    Deacon
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2002
    Messages:
    6,930
    Likes Received:
    112
    There’s no "knabe," in Martin Luther’s translation of Leviticus 20.13
    MARTIN LUTHER'S TRANSLATION [LINK]

    "Wenn jemand bei einem Manne liegt wie bei einer Frau, so haben sie getan, was ein Greuel ist, und sollen beide des Todes sterben; Blutschuld lastet auf ihnen."

    Re-translation into English from German:
    If someone lies with a man as with a woman, what an atrocity it is, both are to die in death; blood-guilt is on them.

    Rob
     
  7. Debby in Philly

    Debby in Philly
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2003
    Messages:
    2,537
    Likes Received:
    0
    Thanks for the link. I checked it out by searching for knabe, and didn't find it in Leviticus, but did find it in First Corinthians 6:9 and First Timothy 1:10 -

    "DER ERSTE BRIEF DES PAULUS AN DIE KORINTHER
    6. Kapitel
    [6.9] Oder wißt ihr nicht, daß die Ungerechten das Reich Gottes nicht ererben werden? Laßt euch nicht irreführen! Weder Unzüchtige noch Götzendiener, Ehebrecher, Lustknaben, Knabenschänder,
    DER ERSTE BRIEF DES PAULUS AN TIMOTHEUS
    1. Kapitel
    [1.10] den Unzüchtigen, den Knabenschändern, den Menschenhändlern, den Lügnern, den Meineidigen und wenn noch etwas anderes der heilsamen Lehre zuwider ist,"

    So now I guess it's a question for the GREEK scholars out there. What was the Greek where Luther gets his "Knabenschändern?"
     
  8. Humblesmith

    Humblesmith
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2005
    Messages:
    698
    Likes Received:
    0
    The claim by the homosexual rights crowd is that the words used in 1 Cor 6:9 (Strongs 733 and 3120) can only be viewed in light of idolatry and pedophilia. I believe the term they're trying to imply is pederasty, which is sexual relations between an adult male and a young servant person for extended periods of time.
    However, I consulted four lexicons and they all disagreed (BDAG, Liddell, Scott, and Jones, Louow Nida, and Thayers). There is another Greek term "paidophthoreo" that the Apostle Paul did not use....it specifically means "sex with boys."

    So I think the inspired Apostle knew exactly what he was saying....homosexuality in all its forms is terrible sin. The English translation committees have translated the term correctly, and the Greek means exactly what the English says.
     
  9. Deacon

    Deacon
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2002
    Messages:
    6,930
    Likes Received:
    112
    780 ἀρσενοκοίτης (arsenokoitēs), ου (ou), ὁ (ho): n.masc.; ≡ Str 733—LN 88.280 male homosexual, one who takes the active male role in homosexual intercourse (1Co 6:9), specifically interpreted as male homosexual paedophilia (nab footnote); possibly a more generic term in first Timothy; sodomites (rsv, nrsv, nkjv), perverts (niv, neb, reb), practicing homosexuals (nab), homosexual (njb), 1Ti 1:10+), note: translations possibly use certain specific terms to infer or allow certain theologies

    [Dictionary of Biblical Languages with Semantic Domains : Greek (New Testament) (electronic ed.) (GGK780). Logos Research Systems, Inc.]
     
  10. rbell

    rbell
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2006
    Messages:
    11,103
    Likes Received:
    0
    Echoing Humblesmith...

    Keep in mind the pervasiveness of homosexuality in the greek culture. That background further reinforces that Paul likely chose the word very carefully, and shoots another hole in the "cultural taboo" argument the gay community argues when dismissing biblical references. Homosexuality was accepted more in Paul's day (in Greek and Roman circles) even than today.

    Hard to believe, ain't it? :( No doubt, being a 1st-century believer was tough business...)
     
  11. Humblesmith

    Humblesmith
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2005
    Messages:
    698
    Likes Received:
    0
    Strongs 733 is arsenokoites, defined in the best current Greek lexicon (BDAG) as copied below. Note the specific line buried in the definition: "Paul's strictures against same-sex activity cannot be satisfactorily explained on the basis of alleged temple prostitution or or limited to contract w. boys for homoerotic service" So BDAG (and three other lexicons that I listed) specifically deny that we can limit the defnition to pedophilia.

    BDAG:
    "..a male who engages in sexual activity w. a pers. of his own sex, pederast 1 Cor 6:9 (on the impropriety of RSV’s ‘homosexuals’ [altered to ‘sodomites’ NRSV] s. WPetersen, VigChr 40, ’86, 187–91; cp. DWright, ibid. 41, ’87, 396–98; REB’s rendering of μαλακοὶ οτε ρσενοκοται w. the single term ‘sexual pervert’ is lexically unacceptable), of one who assumes the dominant role in same-sex activity, opp. μαλακός (difft. DMartin, in Biblical Ethics and Homosexuality, ed. RBrawley, ’96, 117–36); 1 Ti 1:10; Pol 5:3. Cp. Ro 1:27. Romans forbade pederasty w. free boys in the Lex Scantinia, pre-Cicero (JBremmer, Arethusa 13, ’80, 288 and notes); Paul’s strictures against same-sex activity cannot be satisfactorily explained on the basis of alleged temple prostitution (on its rarity, but w. some evidence concerning women used for sacred prostitution at Corinth s. LWoodbury, TAPA 108, ’78, 290f, esp. note 18 [lit.]), or limited to contract w. boys for homoerotic service (s. Wright, VigChr 38, ’84, 125–53)."
     

Share This Page

Loading...