Foreknew Israel Salvation Gentile

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Brother Bob, Jul 1, 2006.

  1. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob
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    Why if Israel was God's people that He foreknew did they have to fall for Salvation to come to the Gentiles if they also were foreknown?

    Why was Paul saying if God had cast away Israel He also would be cast away if he was one of the foreknown?

    Romans, chapter 11
    1": I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

    "2": God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,

    "3": Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.

    "4": But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

    "5": Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

    "6": And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

    "7": What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded

    "8": (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.

    "9": And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumbling block, and a recompence unto them:

    "10": Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back always.

    "11": I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

    Peace, :praise:
     
  2. pinoybaptist

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    Brother Bob:

    Again, we need to go by context. And the context of chapter 11 is an extension of the context of chapter 10, which derives from Chapter 9.

    Also, is this eternal salvation ? Or is this timely salvation from false doctrines, from false practices, all of which are sin and will merit chastisement here on earth ?

    It has to be timely, because eternal salvation is exclusively OF the Lord, very definitely unmerited grace, irrespective of Jew or Gentile, of whether one lives in Israel or in the North Pole, or of whether one was born and died before Christ's time, during Christ's time, or after Christ's time.

    peace.:flower:
     
  3. Brother Bob

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    Pinoybaptist;

    Thanks for your reply, seems we are alone on this. I agree

    that all Scripture has to be taken in context but do not

    understand what you mean by a timely salvation. It says

    "Did God cast his people away" so it seems to me it must

    of meant their eternal salvation. I agree that it must be of

    the Lord whether before Christ, during or after, for all

    things must come together in one, in Christ Jesus. Also it

    says those did He cast away were the "elect". I simply

    thing it means that it was a means for God to also deliver

    Salvation to the Gentile nation by provoking Israel to

    jealousy and blinding them until the Gentiles come be

    brought in. The point I am making is if the Gentiles had no

    hope in the world how could they be foreknown? I can see

    where Israel could be but if the Gentiles were even aliens and without God and had no hope. peace :wavey:[/RIGHT]
     
    #3 Brother Bob, Jul 2, 2006
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  4. Brother Jeremy Slone

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    I looked at it as in time as well, as far as them being the nation with the covenant of God but that was a natural covenant, Then you have to consider Ruth and them they were children of God I believe but didn't have all the rights in that covenant then, Christ tore down the middle wall, and now its the Grace covenant. "They were all natural sons of Abraham." Now I see them in three groups. In Pauls day he said in Romans 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. I see these as the apostles and believers of Christ, Then in 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes. and this looks to be natural fathers so I am not sure what that one is. May be they are brought unto salvation after the preaching of the gospel to the gentiles. ?? Its reads in 11:25 .....; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. in Luke 21:24 it reads And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the time of the Gentiles be fulfilled. Then it goes on to :27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. Is this when he returned after He told Mary touch him not or is this the Last day ??? Then he said not all Israel is of Israel and John the Baptist told those pharisees and scribes " who hath warned you from the wrath to come for you are of your father the devil...ect." I don't think God forknew them. Also he told us not to boast unless he cut us off again and that he could graft them back in again. This makes me think of salvation in time. Just like in rev. if he removes a candle stick from the church. They are still children but are in darkness. So when the writer said forknew in Romans 11:2 does he mean all of Israel or just the true Israel that shall be counted as the seed of Faith. Just like the one that will say unto him Lord haven't we done this in your name and so on. And he tells them part from me you workers of iniquity I never knew you. ( couldn't you say he didn't forknow them aswell) Then look at Hosea 2:23 An I will sow her unto me in the earth; and I will have mercy upon her that has not obtained mercy; and I will say to them which were not my people, Thou art my people; and they shall say, thou art my God. ( Did not God forknow them.) God calls those things that were not as thou they were. Acts 15:18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world. and in Thessalonians 1:4 Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God. These were Gentiles because of 1:9 it said they turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God. So then in IPeter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ. I say have not the gentiles gone through sanctification of the Sprit, ...sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ. If this is true for you and I and then we must be the Elect he forknew. I am still looking at some of them things in Romans Chapter 11. Its hard for me ....
     
    #4 Brother Jeremy Slone, Jul 3, 2006
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  5. pinoybaptist

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    Brother Bob:


    By reading the Book of Romans from Chapter 1, we see the progression that Paul goes through: Universality of sin, both Jew and Gentile have sinned, one with the knowledge of the law, the other without, justification by faith, eternal life in Christ, the new nature of the child of God, the struggle of this new nature with the old, the eternal security of the child of God, the child of God is in Christ, the work of the Spirit in the child of God, the progression of election (foreknown, predestinated, called, justified, glorified), the fact that all of the above work for good to them that love God, to them that are called, the inseparable standing of God's elect.
    In Romans 9 Paul begins by describing his feelings towards Israel, and his willingness to be 'accursed from Christ' if it redounds to their good, and the standing of Israel before God, but he is very careful to state that not all Israel is Israel indeed, and we see him progressing towards the elect among Israel, the true children of promise among Israel, and these he calls the remnant (verses 27, 29).
    These are those he refers to as having been foreknown, and not cast away in the verses you asked about in your original post.

    Now, we come to Time Salvation.
    Time salvation, in a nutshell, is the blessing of obedience here in time.
    "'If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land: but if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it.' Isaiah 1:19,20".

    Paul begins chapter 10 by speaking of his heart's desire for Israel to be saved. But what salvation ? This is the same Paul that have repeatedly pointed out that salvation is in Christ alone, that Jesus ONLY saves, that salvation is not by works but by grace, that speaks of salvation as complete already, done, finished. So how then can he desire for Israel to be saved given all that he says about salvation. Unless if he was speaking of another kind of salvation, or another aspect of the same salvation.

    In verse 2 he points out the lack of knowledge but abundance of zeal that national Israel has for the Lord, and discusses law vs Christ. righteousness thru the law, and righteousness by faith in Christ (which is not what eternally saves, but which is what results in timely salvation vs. 10, 11).

    Knowledge is what Paul wants to bring to the zeal of the remnant in Israel because knowledge strengthens faith (which is a gift from God), but how can they gain knowledge and therefore believe, obey, follow Christ, if no one points them to Him ? If no one teaches them that the very law which they follow and to which they have focused their attention and hope is but a shadow of the Christ, and so that belief and confession of that belief and the resulting salvation from the bonds of works and law that they are in, is so near to their hearts and mouths already ? Why, someone has to preach in Israel that is how.(verses 10-15).

    Paul was never concerned about the eternal destiny of anyone . He know and has repeatedly stressed that has been taken cared of by the cross, by the blood, by the mercy of God in Christ.

    His concern was that Christ be lifted up among the elect here in time. That believers may know the blessings of obedience here in time. That is what he meant when he said in another part of the Bible: And now abideth faith, hope, charity. And the greatest of these is charity.

    In time we experience faith and hope, but who needs faith and hope when one enters glory ? Only charity, love, remaineth, and therefore far greater than the other two.

    Time salvation is a touchy subject, especially when one has been raised up to understand that everytime the Bible speaks of salvation, it refers to only the soul.

    Time salvation is involved when Jehovah laid down His instructions in Deuteronomy 6:4-6.
    The child of one who is elect may not necessarily be with him in heaven when the time comes, but in the same way that the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and vice versa, so the believing parent sanctifies his/her children !

    Time salvation is involved when God told the Israelites many times thru the mouths of His prophets; choose life, and not death.

    Time salvation, the blessings of obedience is involved when Paul begins chapter 12 of Romans with "I beseech you, therefore, brethren........"

    In love and peace to you, Brother Bob.:flower:
     
  6. Brother Bob

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    I agree with you on time salvation. I believe it is when we lose the joy of our salvation here in life but we do not lose our eternal salvation. I don't think the above scripture was talking about time salvation though because it goes on to say God hath not cast away "his people" which He foreknew.

    The point I am saying is Paul seem to be saying that "if" He had of cast them He foreknew away it would of included him also and seems to be saying the "foreknew" is Israel.

    What really seems to make it a different way of salvation other than predestinated, foreknew santified, justified and Gloryfied is the fact when Paul went on talking he was for sure talking to a different way for he said "in whom ye also trusted, after you heard the word of truth the gospel of your salvation, and after you have "believed". This does not seem to include anyone that was of the foreknown. I understand what you are saying and I respect your veiw, I see it to Israel but I cannot see it to the Gentiles. As you know the Scriptures that are used in predestination depend on what you highlight what or how they were predestinated. I guess this is like the "double marriage question", we will know for sure when we get to Heaven and see the Lord face to face. peace :flower:
     
  7. Brother Jeremy Slone

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    I see it alot like you Pinoy, also I like to correct what I wrote in my above Post. I put it father's sakes, and its fathers' sakes, plural form and lower case. Also it said in Romans 11:8 (According as it is written God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear:) unto this day. (Not our day But Paul's day.) I believe many of them heard Christ and the Apostles speak and the miracles that he did. They had a witness when Christ said if you don't believe for my word sake believe for the works that he did, doing the miracles to show God had sent him. I think it was different in that time compared to us for they had not been born again yet seeing the Holy Ghost was given to many of them later.

    I always think it may be why it was said they came by Faith and we come through Faith....?

    But the whole thing Served God's purpose, Romans 11:15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

    So to wrap it up I believe it doesn't matter if you Jew or Gentile Dog on the outside its a Jew on the inside born of the spirit and circumcision of the heart.
     
  8. Brother Bob

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    After all that Paul had said he concluded it by saying this:

    "12": That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

    And then Paul went on to say:

    "13": In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

    I cannot in all honesty turn around and put the last people who also trusted with those who were foreknown. peace:Fish:
     
  9. LeBuick

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    It was the will of the Father.

    Jn 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
    12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
    13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

    It was also to fulfill prophesy but I will have to put my mind together and remeber what I want to quote.
     
  10. Brother Bob

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    Romans, chapter 11
    1": I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

    "2": God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,

    That is my point, He was still talking about Israel in those Scripture, or at least it seems so to me. What you think?
     
  11. pinoybaptist

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    Brother Bob:

    I guess I forgot to give my thoughts on these Scriptures.
    You see, there is a sense in which God has not forgotten the Israel whom He foreknew because if we go on reading the verses that follow Paul explains what he means. He was not referring to national Israel but to that Israel within the nation known in time as Israel. Paul calls them the remnant (verse 5).
    Them God foreknew, and have not forgotten, in that their eternal salvation was secured by Christ at the cross as well as Gentiles. These are those whom Paul wants to 'save' in the timely sense.
    Paul makes reference to that Scripture in the Old Testament during the time of Elijah, about the 700o men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.
    In a wider sense, as we read this, we also see how God created mankind, but is not the Father of all mankind, and His mercy reached out only to those whom He foreknew and elected in Christ.
     
  12. Brother Bob

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    I agree all that are of Israel are not Israel but either way He still is saying it is Israel he foreknew. There is this only one verse in the Bible about "foreknew". There is only one Scripture in the Bible of "foreknow" and to me they both seem to be talking about Israel the "remnant".

    "In whom ye also trusted, after you heard the word of truth and then after you have believed then are you sealed with the Spirit of Holy Promise."

    Do you agree that these were two different peoples that were received by Christ in different ways? peace
     
  13. Brother Bob

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    Double post? peace:Fish:
     
    #13 Brother Bob, Jul 3, 2006
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  14. LeBuick

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    Here is the prophesy I was trying to remember;

    PS 118:20 This gate of the LORD, into which the righteous shall enter.
    21 I will praise thee: for thou hast heard me, and art become my salvation.
    22 The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner.
    23 This is the LORD's doing; it is marvellous in our eyes.

    Yes, I believe I see your question, if the Jews rejected Christ, how are they still his people or what does Paul mean by "God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew"?

    Arean't they under a different promise? Let me look for my systematic theology book. I'll get back to you.
     
  15. LeBuick

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    My books are at the Church but help me out here, it has to do with the eternal convenant with David, 2 Sam 7:16 and the fact of Christ Kingship being from the bloodline of David. Christ is still the king of the Jews even if the people rejected him. I think Locklier talks about this, let me look for his book.

    You are right Bob, this forum makes you study!
     
  16. canadyjd

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    The answer is wrapped up in the meaning of life. The meaning of life is this... Love God and enjoy Him forever.

    The moment God began creating the universe He set in motion His plan, according to His divine will, to have a people for Himself that would worship and enjoy Him as much as any created being could possibly experience. The bible is the written record of the unfolding of God's revelation of Himself to those same people, which are called the "elect".

    Part of His plan for the "elect" included Abraham, Issac, Jacob (Israel), and part of His plan included non-Jews (Gentiles) Through the unbroken succession of Abraham's descendents, the final and ultimately revelation of God was made to all His people in the person of Jesus, who is the Christ (Messiah) of the Old Testament Hebrews. Part of His plan is to mold Israel and Gentile believers into one new man...what we now call "Christians".

    So God "foreknew" each and every person that He has ordained to salvation, whether Jew or Gentile as "His children or His people"; the "elect".

    There has been no change of plans on God's part. History is unfolding exactly as He has ordained.

    peace to you:praise:
     
  17. Brother Bob

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    The question here is that "foreknew" is in the Bible one time and this is it:
    Romans, chapter 11
    1": I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

    "2": God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,

    It seems Paul is saying if God had of cast away Israel it would of Got him too, and Paul was calling Israel the "foreknew" and not those he was with at the time. Those he was with at the time Paul said to them "in Whom ye also trusted, after you had heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation and after you had believed, then were you sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise. Can you give an answer to this Scripture. I know you can go to other Scriptures and get one that suits your case but what is Paul saying here?

    It is plain that Paul was talking about two groups and different ways. :Fish:
     
    #17 Brother Bob, Jul 3, 2006
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  18. LeBuick

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    I see what you're saying now, I took it as how is Israel saved as in the 144K.

    Yes, I agree he is seaking of Israel. Especially if you start at the end of the previous chapter it appears you are correct.

    [19] But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.
    [20] But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.
    [21] But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.


    Then Paul continues referring to Israel as GODs people. I do agree with you.

    So your question was why did they have to fall for salvation to come to the rest of the world. I don't believe they had to fall. I believe they were intended to receive the LORD but true to prophesy they did not. Jesus said he came first for the lost sheep of the house of Israel, the to the Gentiles and the rest of the world.
     
  19. Brother Bob

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  20. canadyjd

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    Bbob

    You are correct that Paul is saying here that if God had completely cast away Israel, then he, Paul, would have been cast away as well. He is not saying, however, that there are two different groups that have received salvation in two different ways. Actually, Paul is saying the opposite; the two groups mentioned are actually one group that has a common salvation by faith; that is why he gives his discourse on faith and works.

    He is demonstrating here, to the Gentile believers, that God obviously has called some of the children of Israel to be among the “elect”, just as they (the Gentiles) are. This is why he mentions the “remnant” in v.5 as being “at the present time” and also comparing them to the “remnant” of Elias.

    In chp11:v.7 says, “What then? That which Israel is seeking for, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened”.

    “Foreknew” also occurs in Rom. 8:29, where Paul is talking about the “saints” or “us” or “God’s elect”. There is an obvious connection with the “foreknew” of chap 8, concerning current believers, and the “foreknew” of Chap. 11 that is referring to those of Israel who were among the “elect”.

    The two groups are one, the "elect", that are saved by faith.

    Peace to you:praise:
     

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